Maxed out truss rod and still too much neck relief

[Wazzou]

Truss rod issues like this and others are IMO fender's #1 most common serious issue with thier vintage rod necks, which by the way are the only fenders i will buy even tho i feel that issue is relatively common. I have had many that were screwed and no lube or washers or anything would help. American standard styles like deluxe, AM pros and all those which are modern versions have the double rod i think they call biflex can go both ways so the problem is resolved. Problem is, they *generally* don't sound very good to some including myself. So i only buy the single rod models and risk those issues.

I *think* the reason for the issue in the single rod models is that construction of a neck like that requires that the neck is in a slight backbow under string tension with the rod completely slack so that the range of relief once tightened is maximized. But if you can imagine that means perfect planing of the board and fret leveling at the right position of the rod and u r talking about 1000ths of an inch which means if the wood moves as the guitar ages which mostly happens in it's first few years or it's not perfect during manufacturing, it can cause the issues you are having. So with wood being so unstable naturally, a one way truss rod requires the neck be perfectly made and leveled so that it backbows slightly with the rod completely loose and the neck has to remain relatively stable thru it's life or else you end up with issues like this. Like i said, i've experienced a lot of fenders with this kind of issue or the total opposite....too much relief that can't be removed. With the double rod it's a non issue but you pay the price in tone, assuming you hear it and it's not to your liking.

I think you are right; I now have 2 otherwise extremely cool vintage reissue Fenders, and they both have this issue. Pretty freak'n annoying, since these are typically the most expensive Fenders outside of Custom Shop.

Yet, like you, I'm only interested in the vintage reissues. I never knew there can be tonal differences between the truss rod designs, but I'm always drawn to the vintage spec'd guitars because of the vintage looks and feel and of course the nitro lacquer.

 

[jwp333]

Here’s some pretty good info. May not be the fix but worth a look:

 

[bobio]

Another Stewmac video on clamping the neck to alter the bow.

 

[Peegoo]

@Wazzou

DO NOT DO NOT remove wood unless you have that specific Stooge Mac tool to do so. You will make a dog's breakfast of the job.

Make a few washers as described above and put one in and try it to see if that does the trick.

Also--this is important--do not squirt any lube in there. No oil, WD40, Vaseline, PB Blaster, Kroil, Marvel Mystery Snake oil, or any kind of grease in there. Even a teeny tiny bit will creep off the threads and soak into the wood, softening it and making your problem go from bad to worse.

The best lube to use is paraffin wax, Johnson's paste wax, or Chap Stik. You apply it to the threads of the bullet nut, and on the bearing face of the nut where it mashes against the washer.

 

[Wazzou]

@Wazzou

DO NOT DO NOT remove wood unless you have that specific Stooge Mac tool to do so. You will make a dog's breakfast of the job.

Make a few washers as described above and put one in and try it to see if that does the trick.

Also--this is important--do not squirt any lube in there. No oil, WD40, Vaseline, PB Blaster, Kroil, Marvel Mystery Snake oil, or any kind of grease in there. Even a teeny tiny bit will creep off the threads and soak into the wood, softening it and making your problem go from bad to worse.

The best lube to use is paraffin wax, Johnson's paste wax, or Chap Stik. You apply it to the threads of the bullet nut, and on the bearing face of the nut where it mashes against the washer.

Yeah, I'm holding off on the relief cutter wood bits, unless it comes to that.

I did find some M4 flat washers that might work, I need to check to see that the OD is not too big to fit in the hole. Otherwise I also found 2 #10 lock washers, which have less width between the inner and outer diameters. I think they will fit, but I don't know if I want to use lock washers.

Isn't chapstick partially vaseline? Dan Erlewine uses vaseline, but I definitely have some chapstick around.

 

[Wazzou]

Another Stewmac video on clamping the neck to alter the bow.

This is a good video. The part with Dan working on the Gibson seems to apply to my situation very well. Thanks for sharing. I'm surprised the neck is not off of the guitar, while he's clamping it. But come to think of it, my Tele has the bullet truss rod at the headstock, similar to a Gibson. Looks like I'm putting the neck back on.

 

[Wazzou]

Here’s some pretty good info. May not be the fix but worth a look:

Thanks for posting this video. I think I could watch Dan E. fix guitars all day!

 

[bender66]

Can you please describe a little on how you went about clamping the neck? I agree, that I should try that first before cutting wood out to fit washers.

Yeah, I don't know how many of those presta nuts I have thrown away over the years. To think they could have had a purpose!

I carefully clamped at both ends of the neck with the neck elevated a bit (on the edge of a shelf for easy viewing/access). I used a cork lined caul in the middle of the neck and introduced some backbow into it a little at a time all the while turning the truss nut a smidge, helping the rod hold that shape by not putting all the work onto the rod itself. After a few weeks it held that slight shape and I just back the nut off to make the fretboard level. There are good tutorials on youtube if it makes it easier to have a visual.

 

[EsquireOK]

Most likely, the rod is not actually maxed out (as in truss rod is dead straight inside the neck), as that's very hard to do. It's more likely that the interior of the nut has simply run out of threads, which is common with a closed-end adjustment nut. If so, a spacer will move the nut farther out and give you the adjustment range you need.

It's also possible that you can actually turn it more, but you just don't like the way it feels to do it. IME, this is usually the case when people come to me and say their rod is "maxed out." It's really just that they're afraid to turn it any more. But having done it thousands of times, you get a good feel for whether the nut actually has any more threads to grab or not.

You said it had "only" 1/4 turn. Well, you shouldn't be turning a compression truss rod that much in one go anyhow. Great way to give your neck a hump around the apex point of the rod. The design of an old-school compression rod is such that the resistance of the wood to bending is not equal along the length of the rod. If you turn it too much in one go, there is a great difference between how much wood resistance there is in the middle of the rod, and along the rest of it. Turn it too much in one go, and the wood will bend unequally along the length of the rod. Good case scenario, the rest of the wood takes a few days to catch up to the middle, and you simply end up with an over adjustment, which you can then compensate for by backing off the rod. Bad case scenario, the rest of the wood never catches up, and you end up with a neck with a hump in the middle, two dips on either side, and ski ramps at either end of the neck. To use an abundance of caution, try 1/8 turn at a time, then let it sit for at least half a day before proceeding.

What I would do is to step back for a minute. Back off the truss rod nut to where it was when you got the guitar, and let it sit for a week. Then start over, tightening the rod 1/8 or a turn per day. To help even more, make sure you are bending the neck where you want it to go, and then tightening the nut to take up the slack; this keeps the rod from having to do the work of forcing the wood to move. I hang the guitar over my thigh and press down on the headstock (with the 12th fret over my leg), to do this. The weight of the body is often sufficient to pull the neck straighter. You can also use a fulcrum on your work bench, and padded clamps, if this is too awkward or the technique escapes you.

If, at this time, you really can't turn the nut any more, then add a washer or two. These are common parts at guitar gear suppliers, so there should be no torturous search for them. Worst case scenario, you buy the right size brass tube stock, and simply saw off a 1/16" to 1/8" length of it to act as your shim.

Don't even think about heat treating until you have adjusted your rod properly (i.e. as explained above), and tried washers. That's totally unnecessary in all but bad cases of twisted and/or warped necks.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Is there a qualified luthier in your area, OP??? That's the direction I'd go in...

 

[Wazzou]

Most likely, the rod is not actually maxed out (as in truss rod is dead straight inside the neck), as that's very hard to do. It's more likely that the interior of the nut has simply run out of threads, which is common with a closed-end adjustment nut. If so, a spacer will move the nut farther out and give you the adjustment range you need.

It's also possible that you can actually turn it more, but you just don't like the way it feels to do it. IME, this is usually the case when people come to me and say their rod is "maxed out." It's really just that they're afraid to turn it any more. But having done it thousands of times, you get a good feel for whether the nut actually has any more threads to grab or not.

You said it had "only" 1/4 turn. Well, you shouldn't be turning a compression truss rod that much in one go anyhow. Great way to give your neck a hump around the apex point of the rod. The design of an old-school compression rod is such that the resistance of the wood to bending is not equal along the length of the rod. If you turn it too much in one go, there is a great difference between how much wood resistance there is in the middle of the rod, and along the rest of it. Turn it too much in one go, and the wood will bend unequally along the length of the rod. Good case scenario, the rest of the wood takes a few days to catch up to the middle, and you simply end up with an over adjustment, which you can then compensate for by backing off the rod. Bad case scenario, the rest of the wood never catches up, and you end up with a neck with a hump in the middle, two dips on either side, and ski ramps at either end of the neck. To use an abundance of caution, try 1/8 turn at a time, then let it sit for at least half a day before proceeding.

What I would do is to step back for a minute. Back off the truss rod nut to where it was when you got the guitar, and let it sit for a week. Then start over, tightening the rod 1/8 or a turn per day. To help even more, make sure you are bending the neck where you want it to go, and then tightening the nut to take up the slack; this keeps the rod from having to do the work of forcing the wood to move. I hang the guitar over my thigh and press down on the headstock (with the 12th fret over my leg), to do this. The weight of the body is often sufficient to pull the neck straighter. You can also use a fulcrum on your work bench, and padded clamps, if this is too awkward or the technique escapes you.

If, at this time, you really can't turn the nut any more, then add a washer or two. These are common parts at guitar gear suppliers, so there should be no torturous search for them. Worst case scenario, you buy the right size brass tube stock, and simply saw off a 1/16" to 1/8" length of it to act as your shim.

Don't even think about heat treating until you have adjusted your rod properly (i.e. as explained above), and tried washers. That's totally unnecessary in all but bad cases of twisted and/or warped necks.

Thanks for your great response explaining what I should try. When I got the Tele, it only had a 1/4 turn left, so I didn't take it to that point. I bet the seller had it maxed and backed it off 1/4 turn, since I asked him specifically if the truss rod still had room to tighten. Or maybe not; the guitar came from the southeast, so maybe the neck relief was in spec there...although I doubt it.

Thanks for explaining the method of having the guitar on the lap and helping the neck move in the process, while only doing a little at a time. I'm optimistic that this is all the neck will need, and maybe a washer in the end. Also you may be right, that there may be a little thread left to turn the nut. I tend to get nervous once I start getting that resistance.

I'll start how you explained. I'll thread the nut on until it makes contact inside, and then proceed with 1/8 turn once or twice/day. It makes sense that the wood does not adjust consistently across the neck and taking time making the adjustments is a good idea.

Thanks!

 

[Wazzou]

Is there a qualified luthier in your area, OP??? That's the direction I'd go in...

I do have a great shop to take it to. I have 2 vintage reissue style fenders that need the same neck relief adjustment. I'm going to try it out myself on the Tele, which is a little better off than the Strat, to see how that goes. If I have success with the first one, I'll try the same methods on the 2nd guitar. If I don't have much success, then off to the shop it goes!

 

[Wazzou]

If, at this time, you really can't turn the nut any more, then add a washer or two. These are common parts at guitar gear suppliers, so there should be no torturous search for them. Worst case scenario, you buy the right size brass tube stock, and simply saw off a 1/16" to 1/8" length of it to act as your shim.

I did find a few sellers on Reverb that sell washers made by Fender for their neck heel truss rods, so I have a bag of those heading my way. $10 shipped for a bag of 12; a bargain I think. I don't think they will work with my Tele, with the bullet truss rod. But they might come in handy with my Strat that has the same neck relief problem, but has a vintage style truss rod.

 

[Wazzou]

Update:

I have fashioned up a clamp system for my neck, and I have the neck clamped in place. The C-clamp is positioned at the 8th fret. I created a "caul" using pipe insulation foam and a strip of thin wood. I have the clamp tightened enough to put the neck into a very slight back bow. It did not take much force to make that happen, and I could do more if I want. Or I could reduce clamping pressure slightly until the neck is totally straight.

I have the bullet truss rod nut screwed back on. For a little extra insurance, I put one washer ahead of the nut, that I got from Ace yesterday. I screwed the nut until I felt like it was making contact with the washer. From there I tightened the truss rod about 1/8 of a turn. I plan on doing another 1/8 turn before I go to bed tonight.

So my question now is, what is the end game here? How far do I want to tighten the truss rod? Until it is reasonably tight, and then I can back it off if I still have "back bow" once I put the strings back on?

I have attached pictures of my clamping system.

 

[bender66]

I'd take that pipe insulation off that finish asap.

 

[schmee]

You can modify a washer to work or possibly find one on line. There are a ton of oddball washers out there. I bought some special thin ones with large hole small OD off Ebay from China a while back. Ace hardware has some oddballs.
Or put one on a bolt, nuts both sides of it and chuck in a drill press while filing the OD.

BTW, there are a bunch of small oddball "bushings" at your local Ace Hardware which might do the job of a washer with a small outside diameter...

 

[jtees4]

Washers usually work, I've used them on a Fender and a couple of Gibsons over my many years. Made lots of money on a LP because the guy selling it probably thought he was getting over on me as the string action was way high, but a couple of washers and the guitar was fine and I sold it for a big profit.

 

[NoTeleBob]

Yeah, if that's nitro, I definitely get that pipe insulation off there. Or put something in between like a thin piece of a cotton shirt.

If anyone has found a specific size of washer that works without a little bit of machining, please post some specifics. I've always found that I had to modify them to make them fit both on the truss rod and in the bullet cavity hole.

@Wazzou : Definitely go a little too far as it were in tighten the truss rod. That way when you put the strings on it, it will pull it back to straight. It'll always be easy to loosen it and get more relief. You need to be just a smidge behind that point when you start making your adjustments or you'll be back into the clamps again.

 

[Dunedin2019]

The locking ring off Schrader bike valves work as washers.