Marshall origin 20h, questions on how to quiet practice

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by markfresh, Mar 13, 2021.

  1. markfresh

    markfresh TDPRI Member

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    Hi,

    A few questions if i may.
    (Im a drummer who dabbles in guitar so be gentle)

    I have the 20h and a 4x12 origin cab.
    I mostly use pedals for my sound e.g Boss SD-1, Pro-co rat.
    When i have the chance to play at home loudish i have no problems with the set up and it sounds great.

    Where im having trouble is how to play at lower volumes etc.
    To solve the lower volume problem when practicing i was going to buy a attenuator, a bugera ps-1, unfortunately in Australia every store is sold out and i cannot afford to pay triple the price for top of the range one.

    I understand that these amps need the master volume cranked and when i can play loud i have master and gain on 9. (power on 0.5 or 3w )
    If i turn the master down and gain down it just doesnt have the right sound.

    So until i can get a attenuator im not sure there is much i can do unless can i stick a boost pedal in there etc, or any other suggestions?

    On to headphone listening, the DI out seems to only come out 1 ear of my headphones, i run the DI into my audio interface, and cant get it in both ears.

    I have also run out of the effects send to interface which is in both ears but is then not including the power amp and doesnt sound so good , i have tired to run a cab sim (wall of sound) thru my recording software but it seems it is only for adding after recording not live listening?

    So my goal , is there a way to get the amp to sound better without headphones with the master turned down?

    How can i solve my headphone practice problem?

    Also i have miced up the amp and direct monitored that and it sounds great, but again only at loudish volume .

    So basically once the mrs and kids go to bed there is no nice sounding amp for me , which is my prefered time to play.

    Thanks MArk
     
  2. Mudman32

    Mudman32 Tele-Meister

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    Welcome to tube amps!

    I’d look for a used attenuator. I really like THD’s hot plate.


    Second, get a small 1x10 cab with an inefficient speaker. That in and of itself may solve a lot of problems for you.
     
  3. modavis99

    modavis99 Tele-Meister

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    The 4x12 is a big reason you are loud. Try a 2x12.

    also try a volume pedal through the effects loop.
     
  4. KC

    KC Friend of Leo's

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    the Origin stuff is not really at its best at the lowest attenuator setting -- they get kind of mushy and indistinct in my experience. Going to a 2x12 won't make this better, maybe not even a 1x10. I've got the 20c with a greenback in it, a warm, inefficient 10, and it wants to be in the middle setting with the master at least halfway up before it starts to sound great. At which point it's kind of, well, loud. There are a lot of cab emulators out there these days, somebody will know what the good kind is, or you could go crazy & get yourself a Fractal FM3, the low-volume practice rig of the gods.
     
  5. Axis29

    Axis29 Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    Get a headphone amp? I haven't tried with my OR20 Combo, but I would think that might be a solution.

    The honest answer is, tube amps like a little air moving, and 'lectrons flowing. To play quietly at home, you lose a good bit of the experience. You have to accept some sort of loss in tonal quality.

    I tend to either use higher gain settings on my pedals (If I am absolutely in deep need of dirt), or I just don't worry about it, fiddle with the knobs 'til it's warm enough and worry more about technique. I also use the guitar's volume knob a lot to keep the stink eye factor low with the better half.


    I dunno, I get it that a lot fo guys want the same tone they get on stage in their bedroom, but I just haven't found it possible with tubes. Ya gotta go with modeling or solid state stuff... Going into an audio interface should get you there. I am sure there's a way to get stereo into your headphones... There's probably some setting in your audio interface's software to get you there.

    I think KC's onto something as well. a 4x12 is not always the best solution for low volume tone....
     
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  6. gridlock

    gridlock Poster Extraordinaire

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    I’ve succumb to using a good OD pedal for lower volume at-home playing and also at higher volumes when jamming with others.

    I primarily rotate between 3 or 4 OD pedals depending on the guitar (Fender/Gibson) and amp (Fender/Marshall) that I am using, and tone that I’m trying to achieve.

    I’ve tried multiple expensive attenuators without success, and I have found that using a good OD pedal with my amps, I can get good sounding overdrive tones at almost any volume.

    For my Marshall’s, I mainly use a J-Rockett Dude (medium to high-gain) and a Greer Lightspeed (edge-of-breakup to mild-gain).

    I’d look for a used J-Rockett Dude pedal for your Origin 20 and you’d probably be very happy with your overdrive tones at low volume.

    9A5A8025-E8FF-4F6B-8CFB-BA199E421F55.jpeg
     
  7. Jakedog

    Jakedog Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Something is wrong with your interface or settings. I’ve used the DI out into my Tascam DP24 SD with headphones and always get both ears. Something somewhere is either set wrong, or panned to one side.

    I can’t add anything else to what’s here. The 4x12 is gonna be a lot of sound, even at low volumes. I can’t see an advantage to using one at home, and I don’t even have to be quiet. A much smaller cab might help quite a bit. I have the Origin 1x10 combo, and it’ll scream. But it doesn’t have nearly the thump and thick factor of a 4X12.

    As @Axis29 says, what you’re after is rough with a tube amp. There’s always going to be a compromise if you need a fat sound and low volume with tubes. Big amps are too loud, the little teeny wattage amps, sound like teeny amps. Getting what you’re after at really low volume really is better done with modeling or SS, IMO.
     
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  8. Cosmic Cowboy

    Cosmic Cowboy Tele-Holic

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    I would try a small enclosure. A 1x10 or 1x12 speaker box would go a long way towards making that amp cool off.

    If cost is a concern, you can build a speaker box out of pine, birch, or even plywood. A 2way positive/negative to 1/4" wire will run you about $5 U.S. and a decent V30...about $100.

    Or you can buy one.

    10" is what the origin 20 combo comes with. I would honestly begin there.
     
  9. warrent

    warrent Friend of Leo's

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  10. johnDH

    johnDH Tele-Meister

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    I see you are in Aus (Im in NSW).If you have about $100 and are up for a build project, I also have a design for a properly reactive attenuator that will maintain the full response and tone of your amp down to whisper levels. It has now been sucessfully built many dozens of times by others all over the world, and used with all types of amps.

    Huge thread, mainly about different build reports. but post 1 has the basics covered. See design M2, first diagram near the top for the latest.

    Simple Attenuators - Design And Testing | MarshallForum.com

    You can get most of what you need at Jaycar, plus one coil from wagneronline in Sydney and a package of power resistors from ebay sent from china.

    You'd need to be able to follow the simple schematic, and have basic workshop skills for soldering and drilling.
     
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  11. Glen W

    Glen W Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    The J Rockett Dude works great with a Deluxe Reverb too. Or SR, Or PR...
     
  12. markfresh

    markfresh TDPRI Member

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    Hi all and wow, thanks for all the replies and info ,

    I have managed this morning to download amplitude 5 cab sim and sounds pretty good thru the headphones and even though it wont sound like my cab at least i can crank it.

    In regard to a DIY attenuator even though i have made pedals and wired guitars etc, im not sure if i would trust my handy work to something that may (from my bad craftmanship) blow my head lol.

    I found a hotplate secondhand but id have to trade my first born for it still at the price they want.

    In regards to a smaller cab, i was looking at maybe getting a greenback 1x12 and building a cab, but it would be getting up there in price again, and may still be to loud, but then again i might do it eventually to get that greenback tone everyone swears by.

    Cant find a J-Rockett Dude second hand , even the v2 new is out of stock :(.

    So i think ive solved the heaphone practice problem with amplitude.

    I will keep searching for used items while i wait for the other attenuator to come in stock.

    Also i have read alot of people using boost pedals on the origins, mainly to fill out the amps tone more , specifically the tc electronic spark set to mid, or even the xotic booster .
    I was going to get the spark for when i can play loud, but wondering if i have the amp at low vol, when im unable to play at good tone level would this make it sound a bit better.



    Thanks all for the help.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  13. Axis29

    Axis29 Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    A boost may help... Even at low volumes. They would push the signal to hit the front end harder. But, it still will boost the overall volume as well.

    I tend to rely on dirt pedals to get that dirty sound at lower volumes... One thing I've done for years is use a fuzz pedal, but roll back my guitar's volume a bit. This gives me a bit of boost in the mids and warms things up, retains the touch dynamics, etc. But, by dialing back the guitar, you get a juicy clean thing going on. Then, I stack a regular overdrive behind it to dirty up the signal a little.

    Glad you're finding solutions, though! You'll get there!
     
  14. markfresh

    markfresh TDPRI Member

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    Thanks for the rply,
    I have a i dont have a fuzz but i did build a pedal that is basically a volume knob, which may help.
    also i was just thinking if i turn the amp up a bit so the power amp at least does something but use my boss DS-1 but turn the pedals level down this might sound ok.
    And maybe pair this with a boost, the boost im looking at has a volume on it aswell.

    And thanks ill get there, im enjoying the process as im learning alot along the way :p
     
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  15. markfresh

    markfresh TDPRI Member

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    Also could i put my volume stomp box in the effects loop, at least i could crank the preamp,
     
  16. Drew617

    Drew617 Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    I think you can get there with tube amps, just not usually the same tube amps. Even a lot of 5 watters will be too loud for many of us to really crank in our residential situations. .5-2 watt amps can be really useful here. For whatever reason I know some folks are put off by the idea of a "bedroom amp," but a true bedroom amp is a very specific and very useful thing if it's what you're after.

    The other limitation you'll run up against with tubes or SS, at some level of attenuation or low SPL, is that your speakers may sound rather dead. Heavy speakers, especially many heavy speakers, don't help things. For the bedroom application I really like a single vintage American type speaker, regardless what tonality I'm after: Thin, light cones and soft suspension can still sound alright at low levels.

    Some perception weirdness is in play too, even if you get the tone "right" it may not seem right if you can't feel it like you would at volume. People talk about that re: modelers, but it might apply to any guitar amplification that's quiet enough.

    I'm a pretty committed tube guy but, really, this is the application for modelers. Or more specifically, for cab emulation. You could technically have that with tubes, but now your practice situation is becoming pretty overwrought.

    I like a very low watt amp and a speaker like a C10Q for this application, but modeling makes a ton of sense too.
     
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  17. markfresh

    markfresh TDPRI Member

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    Some good info there thanks.

    Just another idea, i imagine a 1x12" is not going to be much quieter, but i was just looking , and the cab i have has 4 x 60w speakers in it.

    If i was to build a 1x12 cab with a 25 watt speaker in it and turn the head down to the low power settings 3 watt or 0.5 watt would this work or blow the speakers.

    Also i was thinking as well for recording or listening in headphones but having a good sound with the amp up, would building a iso box work?

    Dont get me wrong im quite happy with the amp and im no great player but this interests me alot, and if i have an excuse for a build project thats a bonus.
     
  18. gimmeatele

    gimmeatele Tele-Afflicted

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    I use the bugera PS with mine, so really an attenuator is the way forward, and cheap as it is the bugera does the job perfectly, hope you get one soon
     
  19. markfresh

    markfresh TDPRI Member

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    Thanks, and yeh might have to just back order one here in Australia or get one posted from the US.
     
  20. Axis29

    Axis29 Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    @Drew617 has a point with heavy speakers being harder to get some liveliness out of at low volume, event aht 25 watt Greenback will still suffer at low volumes.

    I wouldn't look at max power ratings (like the 60 and 25 watt numbers you're quoting) but the efficiency... Find something at 25 watts and 102 dB and you're still melting faces. Find something with a 92 or 93 dB and you're gonna instantly lower your overall volume.

    Looking them up, Celestion says the 12" Greenback is a 98 dB speaker. I know a lot of Jensens are in the 92-93 dB range. A quick perusal of Celestion's site shows they start at about 95 dB. But, the difference between 95-100 dB is pretty big. 95-98? You mgiht hear or feel the difference, but it won't be massive.

    All that to say, a single Greenback in a 1x12 would be a good start at reducing volume. Heck, you could try just a single speaker in your 4x12 (if they're 8 or 16 ohm speakers). See if that helps?
     
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