# Make key signatures super simple

#### ASATKat

##### Poster Extraordinaire
Key signatures are easy as the number 7.

F has 1 flat Bb
F# has 6 sharps
1+6=7

Bb has 2 flats
B has 5 sharps
2+5=7

Eb has 3 flats
E has 4 sharps
3+4=7

Ab has 4 flats
A has 3 sharps
4+3=7

Db has 5 flats
D has 2 sharps
5+2=7

Gb has 6 flats
G has 1 sharp
6+1=7

That's it, all 12 keys, sweet.

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#### klasaine

##### Doctor of Teleocity
Silver Supporter
Damn, too bad I memorized all that 45 years ago

##### Tele-Afflicted
Great ! I'm going to take that up to McDonald's and get a cup of coffee !

#### Wally

##### Telefied
Key signatures are easy as the number 7.

F has 1 flat Bb
F# has 6 sharps
1+6=7

Bb has 2 flats
B has 5 sharps
2+5=7

Eb has 3 flats
E has 4 sharps
3+4=7

Ab has 4 flats
A has 3 sharps
4+3=7

Db has 5 flats
D has 2 sharps
5+2=7

Gb has 6 flats
G has 1 sharp
6+1=7

That's it, all 12 keys, sweet.

I can see that this is a method for memorizing the number of sharps and flats in such keys, but that is not all 12 Keys, is it?
C is not included In this list?
Note: unschooled am I, and so I am easily confused….
This shows that there are 15 major keys.

#### ASATKat

##### Poster Extraordinaire
I can see that this is a method for memorizing the number of sharps and flats in such keys, but that is not all 12 Keys, is it?
C is not included In this list?
Note: unschooled am I, and so I am easily confused….
This shows that there are 15 major keys.
View attachment 1032921
You' absolutely correct, I didn't include C, because C is zero or 7. I felt it was obvious. My bad, sorry
The rest is 100% correct.

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#### ASATKat

##### Poster Extraordinaire
I can see that this is a method for memorizing the number of sharps and flats in such keys, but that is not all 12 Keys, is it?
C is not included In this list?
Note: unschooled am I, and so I am easily confused….
This shows that there are 15 major keys.
View attachment 1032921
There are 15 because of the three set of enharmonic equivalents. Gb and F# sound exactly the same but do this crossover thing. But that confused you, I keep it simple and useful for real world playing situations.
KISS

#### ASATKat

##### Poster Extraordinaire
I can see that this is a method for memorizing the number of sharps and flats in such keys, but that is not all 12 Keys, is it?
C is not included In this list?
Note: unschooled am I, and so I am easily confused….
This shows that there are 15 major keys.
View attachment 1032921
In the world of KISS, F# is used 9/10 times and Gb is used 1/10 times and never as it's own key.

#### brindlepicker

##### Tele-Holic
Took me a while to figure that the fourths and fifths of the scale get you help you figure the sharpsand flats I think... Took picking up a tenor sax to get to that point. As far as I’ve found there ain’t a pentatonic box on that thing to noodle on.

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#### Wally

##### Telefied
There are 15 because of the three set of enharmonic equivalents. Gb and F# sound exactly the same but do this crossover thing. But that confused you, I keep it simple and useful for real world playing situations.
KISS
@ASKAat, I understand the concept of enharmonic equivalents. That does not confuse me. What confuses me is how ‘all 12 keys’ as shown in your OP does not include the key of C…no flats or sharps. The enharmonic equivalents are not the problem.
I now understand that you assumed that everyone would start the count with the key of C..no sharps and no flats….was a given, right? Imho, ‘simple’ would include that key of C In an apparent manner so as not to confuse anyone at all. THAT is ‘keeping it simple, stupid‘…ime. We all know what assuming does, eh?
I suppose this little ’7’ can be of use.…even for a stupid one such as myself. IF I want or need to know what is contained in that little trick, I can use my experience as a guitarist to find out. I realized when I was 12 that the guitar lays out so many pertinent facts and concepts in a very simple way that very few instruments can.

#### ASATKat

##### Poster Extraordinaire
Here is another interesting graph.

C - 0 C# - 7
F -1b F# - 6#
Bb - 2b B - 5#
Eb - 3b E - 4#
Ab - 4b A - 3 #
Db - 5b D - 2#
Gb - 6b G - 1 #
Cb - 7b C - 0

And here's another interesting idea. The #s and bs use all 7 letters between them.
Here's a partial sample,

Every letter is represented by the sum of both keys

The Db/D set
Bb Eb Ab Db Gb - F# C# = 7

The Ab/A set
Bb Eb Ab Db - F# C# G# = 7

The Eb/E set
Bb Eb Ab - D# G# B E = 7

Etc.

All 12 keys have this # and b polararity. You can see these opposites on the key wheel, or circle of 4ths and fifths. It was done on purpose.

Hope it makes sense.

#### ASATKat

##### Poster Extraordinaire
@ASKAat, I understand the concept of enharmonic equivalents. That does not confuse me. What confuses me is how ‘all 12 keys’ as shown in your OP does not include the key of C…no flats or sharps. The enharmonic equivalents are not the problem.
I now understand that you assumed that everyone would start the count with the key of C..no sharps and no flats….was a given, right? Imho, ‘simple’ would include that key of C In an apparent manner so as not to confuse anyone at all. THAT is ‘keeping it simple, stupid‘…ime. We all know what assuming does, eh?
I suppose this little ’7’ can be of use.…even for a stupid one such as myself. IF I want or need to know what is contained in that little trick, I can use my experience as a guitarist to find out. I realized when I was 12 that the guitar lays out so many pertinent facts and concepts in a very simple way that very few instruments can.
You make it much harder than it needs to be imo.

Think about it until it is easy and practical, or continue with what you learned as a12 year old.

Also, keep in mind what you learned at 12 was standard classical theory. Old.

The first day in Jazz theory my Berklee schooled teacher and killer sax player told us, "toss out all your classical theory, we're starting over"
I never looked back.

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#### ASATKat

##### Poster Extraordinaire
One more thing, good players don't think this stuff when improvising, they simply play what they hear in their head. No rules.

#### teletail

##### Friend of Leo's
The first day in Jazz theory my Berklee schooled teacher and killer sax player told us, "toss out all your classical theory, we're starting over"
I never looked back.
Is C# no longer the third of an A major chord? I think I'll keep my "old" theory, it's done me pretty well over the last 50+ years. Nothing wrong with learning more, but nothing wrong with building on what you already know either.

#### ASATKat

##### Poster Extraordinaire
Is C# no longer the third of an A major chord? I think I'll keep my "old" theory, it's done me pretty well over the last 50+ years. Nothing wrong with learning more, but nothing wrong with building on what you already know either.
Of course C# exists in a chord and scale and soloing, but I was talking about
key signatures. That was the topic, no key of C#, but yes on the key of Db.

#### ASATKat

##### Poster Extraordinaire
Is C# no longer the third of an A major chord? I think I'll keep my "old" theory, it's done me pretty well over the last 50+ years. Nothing wrong with learning more, but nothing wrong with building on what you already know either.
I think you jumped at conclusions rather quickly, because you misunderstood me.
But dude, do your thing, It's great you're doing it. Keep it alive.

I also have 58 years of guitar behind me, It started with the Beatles on the '64 Ed Sullivan Show. and I attended college jazz classes for four years in '84, and to really understand it, I rewrote all pertinent school info with my own definitions, and that is a continious thing for me. I also have taught privately since '89 and as a tutor in a high school big band jazz class for 5 years. It's still my main income at 68 next to my SS. I did not like tutoring, they were all about Avenge Sevenfold and bands like that, music class was a way for them to get out of an academic class. They took advantage of my not being the real teacher and not doing teacher directives. It was like, if you want to learn jazz I'm here. I got at least one interested student per session. But one on one works best for me, I'm not a cop. I do like to share, it's not the first time someone has commented like you did, I mean I picked up on the confrontive nature of your post, I just have to shake it off and be my best me.

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#### Wally

##### Telefied
You make it much harder than it needs to be imo.

Think about it until it is easy and practical, or continue with what you learned as a12 year old.

Also, keep in mind what you learned at 12 was standard classical theory. Old.

The first day in Jazz theory my Berklee schooled teacher and killer sax player told us, "toss out all your classical theory, we're starting over"
I never looked back.

ASATKat, we are in the middle of a communication breakdown. You are assuming a lot of things, and the assumptions amount to a misunderstanding. So, I retire. I do not need to discuss theory with you.
Have a better day, brother...

#### loopfinding

##### Poster Extraordinaire
It is neat, but in the heat of battle it’s faster just to know your scale shapes and intervals that the shapes make on the fretboard rather than notes.

On the fretboard I think in terms of intervals. If I’m on an Abmaj7 or whatever less used key, I immediately know that the 2nd fret on the E, the 9th on the A, etc are no-go way before they register as Gb.

I actually had to edit this post because it’s slower in words than it is with fingers.

#### David Barnett

##### Doctor of Teleocity
Great ! I'm going to take that up to McDonald's and get a cup of coffee !

That and \$2.75 will buy a subway token.

#### David Barnett

##### Doctor of Teleocity
I can see that this is a method for memorizing the number of sharps and flats in such keys, but that is not all 12 Keys, is it?
C is not included In this list?
Note: unschooled am I, and so I am easily confused….
This shows that there are 15 major keys.
View attachment 1032921

Got one of those in bass or tenor clef?

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