Make an original Blackface Deluxe better?

[MrCoolGuy]

At full load current, those things sag far more than a decent GZ34.

GZ34's don't sag much anyway, in my experience.

 

[MrCoolGuy]

@Wally
It doesn't matter anyway, because we are going with a GZ34, but just for info. Before you had said not to use a 5U4GB with this power transformer because of the extra current draw... but it's the same 125P23B power transformer that Fender later used on the silverface deluxe Reverbs... which used a 5U4GB... shouldn't it be OK?

 

[slider313]

@Wally
It doesn't matter anyway, because we are going with a GZ34, but just for info. Before you had said not to use a 5U4GB with this power transformer because of the extra current draw... but it's the same 125P23B power transformer that Fender later used on the silverface deluxe Reverbs... which used a 5U4GB... shouldn't it be OK?

I think you'll find the plate voltage nearing 450v when using a GZ34 in this amp. If you're using JJ 6V6GT's then that would be okay but the amp will sound quite unforgiving and strident at those voltages as the warmth and slight compression will be lost.

As for the 125P23B, specs on the transformers were changed when Fender went to the 5U4GB. The part number, however, remained the same until mid 1966 when it became 025130.

 

[Pete Farrington]

Yes, manufacturers are free to change the specs of their own internal part #, eg transformers.
It’s a different scenario to manufacturers of ‘off the shelf’ parts changing the specs of items that have that manufacturer’s part #.

 

[MrCoolGuy]

I think you'll find the plate voltage nearing 450v when using a GZ34 in this amp. If you're using JJ 6V6GT's then that would be okay but the amp will sound quite unforgiving and strident at those voltages as the warmth and slight compression will be lost.

As for the 125P23B, specs on the transformers were changed when Fender went to the 5U4GB. The part number, however, remained the same until mid 1966 when it became 025130.

I see. Thank you.
On this forum, if I want to use a 5U4 or a 5R4 or a GZ34... doesn't matter. Someone will say it's wrong.

Yep, GZ34 will be very high voltage.
Yep, 5U4 puts extra strain on the PT.
I feel like the 5R4 was a good compromise, but the capacitance is awfully high for them...

 

[Gris]

Tell him he needs a Super Reverb and send the non verb Deluxe to me

 

[Wally]

I see. Thank you.
On this forum, if I want to use a 5U4 or a 5R4 or a GZ34... doesn't matter. Someone will say it's wrong.

Yep, GZ34 will be very high voltage.
Yep, 5U4 puts extra strain on the PT.
I feel like the 5R4 was a good compromise, but the capacitance is awfully high for them...

The only thing ‘wrong’ with using the GZ34, which is what that PT a was spec’d for, is that the voltages are slightly higher than they might have been back in the day. As noted, with a JJ 6V6 or a good NOS U.S. 6V6, that voltage poses no problem. Know that the Jim Kelly FACS amp ran 6V6s at 475VDC+/-. Kelly advised the use of either G.E. Or Sylvania….I cannot remember which. I owned one of those original FACS amps back in the late ‘90s….hardwood cab with a cane grille. I should have kept it.
It would be worth somewhere close to 10K today….most unique sounding amp I have owned. Yes, it came with its own attenuator.
Re: the 5U4…. I do not risk a BF Deluxe or DR with a 5U4. That PT is valuable.
Re: the capacitance limit on rectifier tubes. There is a note at the bottom of some of those tubes’ tech pages that stipulate that exceeding those limits is acceptable as long as other considerations are met. I used a 5R4
in an old tweed to bring the voltage down from where the stock 5U4 would provide. No problem. One might want to use. Some diode protection on the rectifier???

 

[MrCoolGuy]

The only thing ‘wrong’ with using the GZ34, which is what that PT a was spec’d for, is that the voltages are slightly higher than they might have been back in the day. As noted, with a JJ 6V6 or a good NOS U.S. 6V6, that voltage poses no problem. Know that the Jim Kelly FACS amp ran 6V6s at 475VDC+/-. Kelly advised the use of either G.E. Or Sylvania….I cannot remember which. I owned one of those original FACS amps back in the late ‘90s….hardwood cab with a cane grille. I should have kept it.
It would be worth somewhere close to 10K today….most unique sounding amp I have owned. Yes, it came with its own attenuator.
Re: the 5U4…. I do not risk a BF Deluxe or DR with a 5U4. That PT is valuable.
Re: the capacitance limit on rectifier tubes. There is a note at the bottom of some of those tubes’ tech pages that stipulate that exceeding those limits is acceptable as long as other considerations are met. I used a 5R4
in an old tweed to bring the voltage down from where the stock 5U4 would provide. No problem. One might want to use. Some diode protection on the rectifier???

Understood, and, yes, diodes would be used regardless of rectifier.

 

[slider313]

I see. Thank you.
On this forum, if I want to use a 5U4 or a 5R4 or a GZ34... doesn't matter. Someone will say it's wrong.

Yep, GZ34 will be very high voltage.
Yep, 5U4 puts extra strain on the PT.
I feel like the 5R4 was a good compromise, but the capacitance is awfully high for them...

As Wally stated, the amp was designed when 117v was the normal household voltage in the USA. Today I see anywhere from 121-124vac at my place. I've been using a 5R4GYB, which shows a filter input capacitance of 20uf, in both my 1960 6G4 Super and 1968 Deluxe Reverb with great results. Both amps are running close to schematic spec voltages. The 5R4GYB draws 2 amps which is very close to the 1.9 of the 5AR4.

 

[MrCoolGuy]

As Wally stated, the amp was designed when 117v was the normal household voltage in the USA. Today I see anywhere from 121-124vac at my place. I've been using a 5R4GYB, which shows a filter input capacitance of 20uf, in both my 1960 6G4 Super and 1968 Deluxe Reverb with great results. Both amps are running close to schematic spec voltages. The 5R4GYB draws 2 amps which is very close to the 1.9 of the 5AR4.

Yes, thank you. I'm very well aware of ac voltage increase fine the 60's. I was just stating that, regardless of scary I choose to do, someone on this forum will tell me it's wrong.

 

[2HBStrat]

A while back, a working local musician brought me an original '64 blackface Deluxe (non-reverb). It was in terrible physical condition, but it was almost all original.
I cleaned it up, installed new E. Caps,
3-prong cord, etc. All the voltages are where they should be. I got everything working as it should and gave it back to him. He was very happy with it and it's been his main amp for indoor venues ever since.
But he thinks it could be better. He's thinks the vib channel is too bright, so he's been using the nor channel. He wants me to remove the bright cap from the vib channel and he wants the bass tightened up a little. I was thinking of just upping the first filter stage capacitance a bit, but I'm curious what you guys think.
And I know the easy answer is to tell him that maybe it's not the amp he wants...
But apparently, this amp is as close to being perfect for him as any amp he's played, just wants to dial it in.
Also, right now it has a 5U4GB rec tube.
I know this can change the feel of the amp, but it puts the voltage closer to what it's supposed to be. How much capacitance can that 5U4GB handle?
Some charts say 20uf max, some say 40uf max...
Thoughts?

Also, he sent his as an example of what tone her likes...Can't Hide a Heartache:

Here's a couple pics from when I first got it. Yes, that's a dirt dauber nest... lol
View attachment 1099667 View attachment 1099668

It would probably sound more like he wants if you install a speaker...just a thought.

 

[Refugee]

I think the difference being heard between the recording vs. amp in the room sound is what's known by many is, studio magic. What mic was used? How was the tone stack on the board's mic pre set? Was it hit with a high pass filter during mixing, like most guitar tracks? You'll never get 2012 studio recorded sound out of an amp made in 1964. Well, unless you replaced it with a Two Rock Studio Pro 22.

 

[Refugee]

Another potential issue is that it is pretty much impossible to get an amp in a room to sound "just like the recording". Even the original amp in the room used for the record didn't sound live like its recorded track. The sound you hear when listening to the recording is after the amp is miked and then engineered further to create the track, and then there is additional mixing and mastering. If he could listen to the actual amp used in the recording next to his amp, live in a room, then he could see whether he can get his amp to sound like the amp of the player whose recording he admires. Or he could record his amp, working with an engineer, and see if he can tweak his recorded tone to sound just like the recording he reveres. But an amp live in the room will never sound like the recording.

I hadn't read the entire thread.I pretty much said the exact same thing on page 4. LOL

 

[MrCoolGuy]

I think the difference being heard between the recording vs. amp in the room sound is what's known by many is, studio magic. What mic was used? How was the tone stack on the board's mic pre set? Was it hit with a high pass filter during mixing, like most guitar tracks? You'll never get 2012 studio recorded sound out of an amp made in 1964. Well, unless you replaced it with a Two Rock Studio Pro 22.

Oh because Two Rocks are just that good? Lol

 

[Refugee]

Oh because Two Rocks are just that good? Lol

Why yes. Yes they are. If you've ever seen Steve Kimock live playing through his stereo Two Rock rig through any house pa system, you'd get it.

 

[MrCoolGuy]

Why yes. Yes they are. If you've ever seen Steve Kimock live playing through his stereo Two Rock rig through any house pa system, you'd get it.

I have. For sure they are nice, but they aren't doing anything other companies aren't doing. Hype.

Especially the speakers.
Rebranded Emi's. Lackluster.

 

[Refugee]

I have. For sure they are nice, but they aren't doing anything other companies aren't doing. Hype.

Especially the speakers.
Rebranded Emi's. Lackluster.

Yeah, I don't care for those G1265's either. I did the Kimock thing an got vintage JBL's. D13F and a K120. Way better than Celestions. That is one great combination, with a Two Rock. Bill Krinard really came up with a cool amp, that does borrow a lot from the Dumble sound. What I really noticed is when you play a BF Fender and you hit the bridge pup with guitar knobs dime, you get that nice nasty snarl. But, it accompanied by an ear piercing spike of ear fatigue. Two Rocks deliver all the snarl without the ice pick. I was blown away by that factor.

 

[MrCoolGuy]

Yeah, I don't care for those G1265's either. I did the Kimock thing an got vintage JBL's. D13F and a K120. Way better than Celestions. That is one great combination, with a Two Rock. Bill Krinard really came up with a cool amp, that does borrow a lot from the Dumble sound. What I really noticed is when you play a BF Fender and you hit the bridge pup with guitar knobs dime, you get that nice nasty snarl. But, it accompanied by an ear piercing spike of ear fatigue. Two Rocks deliver all the snarl without the ice pick. I was blown away by that factor.

Well, I think it's cool you found something that suits you. And I bet it does sound great with those JBL's. I'm a huge JBL fan... for more than just guitar speakers.