Make an original Blackface Deluxe better?

[Teleguy61]

My BFDR doesn't sound that good with mid-forward "British" speakers.
I currently have a Weber Ceramic Chicago in it and that has plenty of low end.
Good top end also.

 

[radiocaster]

A while back, a working local musician brought me an original '64 blackface Deluxe (non-reverb). It was in terrible physical condition, but it was almost all original.
I cleaned it up, installed new E. Caps,
3-prong cord, etc. All the voltages are where they should be. I got everything working as it should and gave it back to him. He was very happy with it and it's been his main amp for indoor venues ever since.
But he thinks it could be better. He's thinks the vib channel is too bright, so he's been using the nor channel. He wants me to remove the bright cap from the vib channel and he wants the bass tightened up a little. I was thinking of just upping the first filter stage capacitance a bit, but I'm curious what you guys think.
And I know the easy answer is to tell him that maybe it's not the amp he wants...
But apparently, this amp is as close to being perfect for him as any amp he's played, just wants to dial it in.
Also, right now it has a 5U4GB rec tube.
I know this can change the feel of the amp, but it puts the voltage closer to what it's supposed to be. How much capacitance can that 5U4GB handle?
Some charts say 20uf max, some say 40uf max...
Thoughts?

Also, he sent his as an example of what tone her likes...Can't Hide a Heartache:

Here's a couple pics from when I first got it. Yes, that's a dirt dauber nest... lol
View attachment 1099667 View attachment 1099668

I agree with what you're saying...but...if he's actually going for the pedal steel tone, then it's something completely different. Tight bass, probably a 10", etc.

 

[MrCoolGuy]

Sorry, you're right I missed that in there.

It's OK, man. Lol
I was about to just pretend you were right to avoid a disagreement... because I have a way of rubbing people wrong in this forum. Lol

 

[archetype]

I agree with what you're saying...but...if he's actually going for the pedal steel tone, then it's something completely different. Tight bass, probably a 10", etc.

If you've got a 10" to play with, you can always use a baffle adapter or converter ring:

Baffle Converter for 15'' to 12''

www.mojotone.com

My guess is that capacitor values are the way to tune it to what he thinks he wants. Compared to his example recording, though, he's wanting the apple he has to sound like another person's orange.

 

[printer2]

Tell him the amp is good, it is his guitar.

 

[schmee]

A while back, a working local musician brought me an original '64 blackface Deluxe (non-reverb). It was in terrible physical condition, but it was almost all original.
I cleaned it up, installed new E. Caps,
3-prong cord, etc. All the voltages are where they should be. I got everything working as it should and gave it back to him. He was very happy with it and it's been his main amp for indoor venues ever since.
But he thinks it could be better. He's thinks the vib channel is too bright, so he's been using the nor channel. He wants me to remove the bright cap from the vib channel and he wants the bass tightened up a little. I was thinking of just upping the first filter stage capacitance a bit, but I'm curious what you guys think.
And I know the easy answer is to tell him that maybe it's not the amp he wants...
But apparently, this amp is as close to being perfect for him as any amp he's played, just wants to dial it in.
Also, right now it has a 5U4GB rec tube.
I know this can change the feel of the amp, but it puts the voltage closer to what it's supposed to be. How much capacitance can that 5U4GB handle?
Some charts say 20uf max, some say 40uf max...
Thoughts?

Also, he sent his as an example of what tone her likes...Can't Hide a Heartache:

Here's a couple pics from when I first got it. Yes, that's a dirt dauber nest... lol

My #1 gigging amp is now a 64 Deluxe non reverb. Has been for 3 or 4 years I guess.
A 5R4 is a big jump down! (that's like 5Y3 territory!) maybe he should try a 5V4?
The Normal channel on many of the amps can be a bit of magic. A simpler circuit.

The Deluxe is not as bright as a Deluxe Reverb, but sure take the bright cap out.
Put a set of JJ's in there. They deal with the 450 or so volts just fine. maybe bias him a little hot.
The amp needs a bold robust speaker to tighten up the bass. My favorites are an Emi GA SC64. Or a Weber 12F150 50 watt. Setting the Bass pot too high makes it more flubby on these amps above 4.
Filter caps are great at 20-22uf in lieu of the original 16uf, which may tighten the bass a little also.

 

[Wally]

If someone came to me wanting a tight low end in a BFDR…and knowing that they knew how to run the tone Controls vis-a-vis volume settings, I would do as @schmee suggests and run JJ6V6s…with a GZ34 rectifier.
I would run 2x30mfd caps in parallel in the first stage. 60mfds is the GZ34s spec’d limit. The 5V4 has a limit of 10mfds. The 5R4 is spec’d at 4 mfds. Those limits can be exceeded with certain other precautions. This WILL yield a tight, bassy low end without removing anything that is stock in the preamp. Running lower voltage rectifiers rebiased every tube in the amp.…and not toward what he SAYS he wants, Ime.
Listening to the Tele in that old style country, I don’t hear a tone that makes me want an amp/rig that does that. I hear a fairly compressed Tele that is slightly inarticulate and without any particular ‘tight’ low end. Kind of lifeless, imho. I am not convinced that he knows what it is that is missing from his own sound. This player and I would need to sit with his guitar, amp, and other parts of his rig to hear exactly what the tools he is using are and are not doing for him. I consider that Tele in that recording to be fairly dull sonically….,OEMV.

 

[MrCoolGuy]

If someone came to me wanting a tight low end in a BFDR…and knowing that they knew how to run the tone Controls vis-a-vis volume settings, I would do as @schmee suggests and run JJ6V6s…with a GZ34 rectifier.
I would run 2x30mfd caps in parallel in the first stage. 60mfds is the GZ34s spec’d limit. The 5V4 has a limit of 10mfds. The 5R4 is spec’d at 4 mfds. Those limits can be exceeded with certain other precautions. This WILL yield a tight, bassy low end without removing anything that is stock in the preamp. Running lower voltage rectifiers rebiased every tube in the amp.…and not toward what he SAYS he wants, Ime.
Listening to the Tele in that old style country, I don’t hear a tone that makes me want an amp/rig that does that. I hear a fairly compressed Tele that is slightly inarticulate and without any particular ‘tight’ low end. Kind of lifeless, imho. I am not convinced that he knowyeahs what it is that is missing from his own sound. This player and I would need to sit with his guitar, amp, and other parts of his rig to hear exactly what the tools he is using are and are not doing for him. I consider that Tele in that recording to be fairly dull sonically….,OEMV.

Yeah, @Wally ... I'm on the same page.
It's a BFD(Non-Reverb), but same logic.
I wish he would come over and sit down with me so we could really dial it in.
I really enjoy helping people voice their amps, as opposed to building/fixing amps, but hey...

 

[MrCoolGuy]

We put old rca 6v6gts in there... they should hold up to the high voltage as well as the JJ's, huh? (Close, anyway)

With the GZ34, that is.

 

[MrCoolGuy]

My #1 gigging amp is now a 64 Deluxe non reverb. Has been for 3 or 4 years I guess.
A 5R4 is a big jump down! (that's like 5Y3 territory!) maybe he should try a 5V4?
The Normal channel on many of the amps can be a bit of magic. A simpler circuit.

The Deluxe is not as bright as a Deluxe Reverb, but sure take the bright cap out.
Put a set of JJ's in there. They deal with the 450 or so volts just fine. maybe bias him a little hot.
The amp needs a bold robust speaker to tighten up the bass. My favorites are an Emi GA SC64. Or a Weber 12F150 50 watt. Setting the Bass pot too high makes it more flubby on these amps above 4.
Filter caps are great at 20-22uf in lieu of the original 16uf, which may tighten the bass a little also.

Yeah, he now has a GA SC64 in it. I like them in fender amps. I also like V30's in Deluxe Reverbs! I have old vented Celestion 80's 12T75's in my 71 Quad Reverb...
I really like 12F150's and Weber Chicago's and a few other American-voiceed speakers in Fenders... but some British- style speakers sound good too.

 

[chris m.]

Another potential issue is that it is pretty much impossible to get an amp in a room to sound "just like the recording". Even the original amp in the room used for the record didn't sound live like its recorded track. The sound you hear when listening to the recording is after the amp is miked and then engineered further to create the track, and then there is additional mixing and mastering. If he could listen to the actual amp used in the recording next to his amp, live in a room, then he could see whether he can get his amp to sound like the amp of the player whose recording he admires. Or he could record his amp, working with an engineer, and see if he can tweak his recorded tone to sound just like the recording he reveres. But an amp live in the room will never sound like the recording.

 

[Teleguy61]

We put old rca 6v6gts in there... they should hold up to the high voltage as well as the JJ's, huh? (Close, anyway)

With the GZ34, that is.

The old RCAs are the best for BFDRs I really do feel.

 

[tubedude]

It's OK, man. Lol
I was about to just pretend you were right to avoid a disagreement... because I have a way of rubbing people wrong in this forum. Lol

No worries man, to quote an OCS instructor: be decisive, so I am, but frequently wrong.
From what I see here, most arguments are just a difference of opinion. Some just can't let someone else have one they don't ascribe to.

 

[Wally]

Yeah, @Wally ... I'm on the same page.
It's a BFD(Non-Reverb), but same logic.

My apologies. So, he likes the Normal channel over the Vib channel, correct? So, he likes the gain that is in the Normal versus the loss of gain due to the tremolo in the Vib Ch. Has he played through a BFDR? Or a SFDR…..through the Vib channel.…or any BF/SF reverb amp? He may be looking for that richness that comes with the little bit of extra gain????
ime, a player who won’t play their guitar through their amp in front of a tech while seeking what they want but don’t hear is impeding possible progress.

 

[slider313]

The 5R4 is a good move. Now get rid of the RCA's if you want tight and clean. The black plates break up and compress earlier than most vintage 6V6GT's. If he has to have vintage power tubes then find a set of Westinghouse box plate 6V6GTA's. If not then just go with JJ's. For more gain, get a 50k switch pot installed in the vibrato intensity so he can take the 50k load out of the signal path. A large magnet speaker would help. I like the Weber 12F150S @ 50 watts with light doping of the surround. A Celestion G12H-75 Creamback will also work well. Finally, I've had great results changing the treble cap on the vibrato channel to either a 150pf or a 180 pf, depending on the speaker being used.

 

[Dacious]

If someone came to me wanting a tight low end in a BFDR…and knowing that they knew how to run the tone Controls vis-a-vis volume settings, I would do as @schmee suggests and run JJ6V6s…with a GZ34 rectifier.
I would run 2x30mfd caps in parallel in the first stage. 60mfds is the GZ34s spec’d limit. The 5V4 has a limit of 10mfds. The 5R4 is spec’d at 4 mfds. Those limits can be exceeded with certain other precautions. This WILL yield a tight, bassy low end without removing anything that is stock in the preamp. Running lower voltage rectifiers rebiased every tube in the amp.…and not toward what he SAYS he wants, Ime.
Listening to the Tele in that old style country, I don’t hear a tone that makes me want an amp/rig that does that. I hear a fairly compressed Tele that is slightly inarticulate and without any particular ‘tight’ low end. Kind of lifeless, imho. I am not convinced that he knows what it is that is missing from his own sound. This player and I would need to sit with his guitar, amp, and other parts of his rig to hear exactly what the tools he is using are and are not doing for him. I consider that Tele in that recording to be fairly dull sonically….,OEMV.

Big +1. It almost sounds to me like he wants a Tweed bassman or Super or Pro. I used to run a 5V4 in my SF Vibrolux to get more breakup at low volumes. It certainly made it non-pedal steel friendly.

Trying to turn a BFD into that - not happening.

The V-type is a great neutral speaker for something like a two channel Marshall or Orange. Not a classic Fender tone I would think.

 

[tfarny]

I know nothing about amp tweaking, you guys might as well be speaking Klingon. But I do think I understand when someone says they want a "prettier" bass tone. To me, in my experience, that only comes with bigger iron and probably more watts. Squishy bass and too much sag are what I don't like about a lot of the smaller Fender amps that are so loved here and elsewhere.

 

[InstantCoffeeBlue]

I hear a fairly compressed Tele that is slightly inarticulate and without any particular ‘tight’ low end. Kind of lifeless, imho. I am not convinced that he knows what it is that is missing from his own sound. This player and I would need to sit with his guitar, amp, and other parts of his rig to hear exactly what the tools he is using are and are not doing for him. I consider that Tele in that recording to be fairly dull sonically….,OEMV.

Glad I'm not the only one who felt that way. Lots of studio compression on that guitar part, no dynamics, almost makes it sound like a "Tele" patch on a keyboard. The playing's fine but the amp tone is pretty generic. Not something I'd personally want, but hey, different strokes. A compressor pedal is a much less invasive solution than messing around with the circuitry of a classic amp in an endless forum-insecurity-driven "ToNEZ qUesT", but that's just me.

 

[Wally]

I have small amps that are not squishy on the low end as long as one understands the controls on the amp and the guitar. I have a bass cut on my guitar for use in high gain in order to maintain some articulation on the low end.

 

[MrCoolGuy]

Another potential issue is that it is pretty much impossible to get an amp in a room to sound "just like the recording". Even the original amp in the room used for the record didn't sound live like its recorded track. The sound you hear when listening to the recording is after the amp is miked and then engineered further to create the track, and then there is additional mixing and mastering. If he could listen to the actual amp used in the recording next to his amp, live in a room, then he could see whether he can get his amp to sound like the amp of the player whose recording he admires. Or he could record his amp, working with an engineer, and see if he can tweak his recorded tone to sound just like the recording he reveres. But an amp live in the room will never sound like the recording.

Yeah, I agree 100%... honestly, I think he knows that too. Like he said, it's his favorite amp and he uses it for all small shows, but... I guess he just wants to try, at least, to make it better somehow.