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Looks like Fender has wood legality issues as Gibson does.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by tele12, Mar 24, 2012.

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  1. tele12

    tele12 Friend of Leo's

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    Something I stumbled onto while looking at Fender's IPO.

    "Like Gibson, Fender has been scrutinised for the wood it uses in its instruments. In June, German customs officials started an investigation into whether less than 500 Fender guitars with Brazilian rosewood fingerboards were improperly imported into Germany from March 2010 through January 2011. Fender recalled the guitars from its inventory and from stores pending the outcome of the inquiry. Fender is looking into whether the necks of the guitars may be replaced with other materials, while at the same time seeking a retroactive exemption from the import restrictions."

    http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/2012-03-09/fender-guitar-ipo



    http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/767959/000119312512101896/d293340ds1.htm#tx293340_2
     
  2. tfsails

    tfsails Friend of Leo's

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    Eco-police are everywhere! Big Brother is watching.
     
  3. chabby

    chabby Friend of Leo's

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    Thank God I have my 89 Squier Strat with rosewood fingerboard safely home, it's the only rosewood neck I own. Sounds like they may become extinct
     
  4. Arbiter

    Arbiter Banned

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    Everybody gets looked at. Gibson was the only one who got busted. Had Gibson bothered to be in compliance, they would have been fine.
     
  5. Duncas

    Duncas Friend of Leo's

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    we need to conserve Rosewood before there is none left.

    anyone tried a terrefied maple or baked maple substitute?
     
  6. flyingbanana

    flyingbanana Poster Extraordinaire

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    There is no shortage of rosewood. Don't believe what they say.
     
  7. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

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    Prove that Gibson was trying to avoid compliance .
    This is a huge assumption on your behalf .
     
  8. Durtdog

    Durtdog Poster Extraordinaire

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    I haven't kept up with the Gibson case, but last I remember, no charges were filed, the feds just confiscated a bunch of wood and guitars.

    AFAIK, they don't have a case against Gibson, just accusations.
     
  9. Mike Eskimo

    Mike Eskimo Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Henry is running the company.

    Case closed.
     
  10. flyingbanana

    flyingbanana Poster Extraordinaire

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    Exactly. Henry not withstanding.
     
  11. voodoo_idol

    voodoo_idol Friend of Leo's

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    "The true wood guitar is disappearing quickly. We need to act now because it just won't be around in 10 years," said Henry Juszkiewicz, the chief executive of Gibson, whose instruments are brandished by rock legends including Slash, Dave Grohl and Jimmy Page. The wood traditionally used to fashion premium guitars – rosewood, maple, ebony, mahogany and spruce – is being lost as a result of over-harvesting and the depletion of rainforests.​

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/playing-for-time-wood-shortages-threaten-worlds-best-guitars-2329707.html
     
  12. JDO

    JDO Tele-Holic

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    I don't know enough about this to talk intelligently but I'll say that this seems a little odd to me. Generally a business made from a product will try to keep that product in existence to keep their business going. For instance, cows will never go extinct because it is in the beef industries best interest to make sure new cows are born as regularly possible. One of the best ways to keep an animal from going extinct is to make it top billing on a menu and allow it to be farmed. There was actually a story about an exotic farm in TX that is helping bring animal populations back up by allowing their animals to be hunted every so often and charging people for that privilege. The lumber industry does this with building lumber. As they cut trees to build with they plant new trees to make sure they don't work themselves out of a job. Just seems odd to me that guitar companies wouldn't do the same.
     
  13. GlenParrish

    GlenParrish Tele-Meister

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    The guitar in my avatar NEVER leaves the country we me. Maybe I'm just paranoid though.

    Has anybody made a guitar out of palm trees? I have two huge ones at my place that randomly drop 12 foot thorn-lined fronds. I wouldn't mind if those went extinct.
     
  14. Jakedog

    Jakedog Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Well, cows breed fast, and mature fast.

    I can't remember the exact number, but I think I read recently that for an Ebony tree to get big enough to use for guitars it has to be around 150 years old? Maybe more? it's slow growing stuff. Rosewood too from what I understand. It only takes about 15 seconds to cut one down.

    So it is literally impossible to replace as much as you use, in any kind of useable time frame.
     
  15. L.A.Zee

    L.A.Zee Tele-Meister

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    Where can I buy one?
     
  16. jjkrause84

    jjkrause84 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Yeah, gotta watch out fer them LAWS. They'll git ya!
     
  17. elsewhere

    elsewhere Tele-Holic

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    A counterexample, also with cows: Tragedy of the Commons.
     
  18. dconeill

    dconeill Tele-Afflicted

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    Sorry to say, this seems naive to me. The best example is the fishing industry - it's in the process of collapse all over the world. The lumber industry in the US for years just harvested without worrying about replenishment. The calculus, I imagine, usually goes something like this: the resource I'm using up will last my lifetime. It would cost me money to make it sustainable. So whoever comes after me is on their own.

    Read the book "Collapse" by Jared Diamond - very eye-opening.
     
  19. BradL

    BradL Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    I did wonder about this special edition run with slab Brazilian Rosewood boards at the time. Specifically why were they being sold off now (then) and why Europe got them rather than a world wide distribution.
     
  20. mabley123

    mabley123 Friend of Leo's

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    people were so greedy and there was so much good wood they cut it and it was almost gone before you knew it.

    in brazil they used to make homes, fence posts, barns and all kinds of stuff from brazilian rosewood. now they are allowed to harvest only stumps, reclaimed homes barns, fence posts ect. and trees that have fallen.

    thats another reason gibson uses african mahogany on its les pauls and not honduran. i i think maybe on the historic models and a couple others they may use honduran but mostly african mahogany. im pretty sure honduran is also cities protected and cannot be shipped out of usa without proper documentation. i know bow river hardwoods in canada will also not send honduran to the usa because they do not want to go to the trouble to have it certified to send out of the country.

    can you imagine a house made from brazilian rosewood. you would have to predrill everything and would be a very difficult job just to cut it it is so hard and dense. brazilian rosewood is protected by C.I.T.E.S or convention on international trade on endangered species of wild fauna and flora.

    if fender sent strats with brazilain rosewood fretboards out of the country....any country and did not have the required paperwork...? that is worse than dumb and its hard to believe they did it even possibly by accident.

    the usa has been a member of cities since 1975. so it is not like they didnt know better.


    im not for the police being all up out bu""s either.... but im not for messing around with stuff that is either endangered, threatened ect..... as that will make it all but impossible for any of us to get...even legally.

    gibson also claims their wood is FSC certified and some of it is not.

    YOU PAY EXTRA FOR THIS FSC certification.

    here is s statement from FSC on the first gibson raid.


    MINNEAPOLIS MN -- The Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) issued a statement noting that the wood seized by the Department of Justice in the August 24 raid of Gibson Guitar's factory in Nashville in not FSC certified.

    The FSC's statement contradicted comments released by Gibson Guitar CEO Henry Juszkiewicz the day after DOJ agents armed with automatic weapons confiscated pallets of ebony and rosewood lumber, dozens of guitars and electronic files from the Nashville plant.

    "Agents seized wood that was Forest Stewardship Council controlled,” Juszkiewicz said. “Gibson has a long history of supporting sustainable and responsible sources of wood and has worked diligently with entities such as the Rainforest Alliance and Greenpeace to secure FSC-certified supplies. The wood seized on August 24 satisfied FSC standards."

    Following is FSC's statement in its entirety.

    "In response to recent media coverage of the federal raid of Gibson Guitar Corporation factories in Tennessee, the Forest Stewardship Council has issued the following statement:

    "Not all the wood Gibson Guitar Corporation uses is FSC certified. This story is about the non-certified wood.

    "So while Gibson has shown important sector leadership by stimulating demand for FSC-certified wood, the federal investigation addresses the wood they use that is not FSC certified.

    "FSC-certification is a component of due care that companies can use, but unless 100% of the wood used is FSC certified, other mechanisms are required too. In this instance, it is the non-certified wood that is being questioned.

    "As part of its global forest management standard, FSC requires compliance with national and local forest practice regulations. FSC was not designed to address laws related to value-added manufacturing, which appears to be the subject of the recent action against Gibson."
     
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