Lets discuss problems with Titebond 2

Discussion in 'The DIY Tool Shed' started by bob1234, May 30, 2014.

  1. Nick JD

    Nick JD Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Not very methodical at answering questions though. ;):D

    Try putting a drop of water on one of your gluing surfaces. Does it soak in immediately?

    And to al the guys here who sand with rough grits before gluing ... do you know Titebond recommend against it?

    Can we discuss why it's not good to sand?
     
  2. Blue Bill

    Blue Bill Poster Extraordinaire

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    I've heard of "overclamping", I've never experienced it. I've had joints fail if the glue is really old, or had been frozen. I worked in production shops, where we would use sometimes 2 or 3 gallons of the stuff a day, type II and III, with virtually zero glue failure. You said you don't want to hear it, but it worked for me. Sorry I don't have the answer.

    Some guys swear you should not sand the glue surface before gluing, a fresh pass on the jointer or planer is best, but I never had a problem like the one you describe. Good luck!
     
  3. dsutton24

    dsutton24 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    You're either squeezing the glue out of the joint, or you're applying clamp pressure to compensate for a bad joint and creating stress. Don't go all Librarian poo, those are about the only two possibilities.
     
  4. Mellencaster

    Mellencaster Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    What are the possibilities for glue to lose it's integrity.... Well there's , extreme cold , extreme heat ,extreme dryness , bad glue batch, too much clamp pressure , not enough clamp pressure.
     
  5. bob1234

    bob1234 Tele-Afflicted

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    I'll go check...
     
  6. Blue Bill

    Blue Bill Poster Extraordinaire

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    Sometimes, if the wood is dry and porous, I'll mix up some water and glue, maybe 50-50 or so. Some guys call it "sizing". I'll paint this on liberally, two or three minutes before applying the full strength glue and clamps. I've found, if the wood is highly absorptive, it seems to suck out all the moisture from the glue, before it can set up properly. The sizing prevents this problem, plus, gives you a few more minutes of clamp set-up time.
     
  7. Nick JD

    Nick JD Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Have a read:

    http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/nreos/wood/wpn/wood_surface.htm

    Not saying it's your issue (guessing that TB2's differences to TB1 might exacerbate this issue) but it might be. Symptoms agree.

    Anyhoo - I'd use epoxy if you want a waterproof glue. And you sand before epoxy, but not before aliphatics.

    Sharp jointer blades are a must for good glue joints.

    Regardless, water-based glues need a hydrophillic wood surface.
     
  8. Nick JD

    Nick JD Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    This is the reason gluing endgrain is damn near impossible.
     
  9. bob1234

    bob1234 Tele-Afflicted

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    Well heres what happened. edit: Note! the "darker" side does the EXACT same behavior.

    before : dry
    [​IMG]

    during : water beaded up, like water on a waxed car

    [​IMG]

    after: water just rolled off... no appreciable wet spot

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Nick JD

    Nick JD Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Can you wipe an area with a solvent, let it dry completely (maybe a minute or two with acetone) and then try the (just one small drop) water test again?

    And can you run another wood species through your jointer and test that too?

    ...trying to isolate the jointer from wood issues.
     
  11. Glen Smith

    Glen Smith RIP

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    Excerpt from Titebond.com:
    http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/LiteraturePDFs/FF683_GlueGuideTB.sflb.ashx
     
  12. Nick JD

    Nick JD Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Hi Steve,

    Our work has shown that a smooth surface will always have higher strength than a rough surface. Two-hundred grit or higher sanding to get flat or tight-fitting joints works well.

    Wood glues work by attaching to cellulose on the wood and the smoother (tighter) the joint, the less adhesive is needed to bond the surfaces. Less adhesive gives fewer areas of imperfections (bubbles, skips, dust and gaps) where stress can accumulate and cause glue line failure. Also, wood glues tend to be around 50% solids and therefore shrink when they dry. If the rough surface is too “gappy,” as the adhesive dries and shrinks, it will pull away from one surface or the other leaving gaps in the glue line, which again will concentrate force when the joint is stressed. This is why wood glues need to be clamped. Clamping keeps the surfaces in contact as the glue shrinks and dries.

    A note of caution on smooth surfaces: Burnished areas may be smooth, but will not bond. Burnishing causes the cellulose to change chemical characteristics and thus not bond to the polyvinyl alcohol portion of the wood glue. This can be tested by putting a drop of water on the surface of the wood, if it doesn’t soak in, the surface is burnished or sealed and should be sanded until cleaned of the burnishing.

    For hammer veneering, you can use either hot or liquid hide glue. I have read that roughing the surface of the substrate and veneer gives better strength. But our work shows that too much roughing of the surface can cause loose fibers and fiber tear which can weaken the bond. As above, the adhesive bonds to the cellulose so a roughed surface is not necessary, but as long as it doesn’t damage the wood surface to be bonded, it will produce good results on veneers.

    Bob Behnke
    Sr. Technical Specialist
    Franklin International


    http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/best-wood-glue-surface-smooth-or-rough

    You do not need to sand to increase the surface area - you need to sand if your surface is sketchy. Sanding is a bandaid to a bad surface prep.

    If you need to sand because your planed surface is sketchy, use fine grits.
     
  13. trev333

    trev333 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I've only used TB2... that's all the local distributor had.... you don't see it in regular hardware stores... I had to search it out....

    all of the bodies I've glued up have been rough, hand planed/ some fine sanding... never perfect..holding the two halves up to the light and get the surfaces as true as I can ... before I get the shiits and glue it up...

    sometimes I might wipe the faces down with water and let it dry off, if it's really dry wood... I mostly use old recycled wood... well dry.... just to get an idea of how the glue will take....

    that glue is more than a year old, maybe two?... and still works fine... I haven't noticed any movement in my oldest glue ups.... or have not had any joins fall apart....

    next time I swing by that part of the coast I'll see if he has some TB1 for a fresh bottle....
     
  14. jhegel

    jhegel Tele-Meister

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    Not that this is your problem, but I have to pay attention to temperature. The only joints that have failed on me were before heat in the shop. I make sure now that everything is above 50 F hours prior to gluing and hours after.

    Since you like to exotic woods, there may be some issues with the wood. Some have excessive oils or other issues that may not behave well with your choice of glue.

    John
     
  15. bob1234

    bob1234 Tele-Afflicted

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    I don't keep any solvents in the house. I'll do that stuff for you tomorrow!
     
  16. kelnet

    kelnet Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I've never had a problem with it.
     
  17. RogerC

    RogerC Poster Extraordinaire

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    I find this terribly ironic since you're quite quick to tell people how crappy their stuff is or how bad their technique is. You're a real piece of work, dude.
     
  18. Glen Smith

    Glen Smith RIP

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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Yup, been like that since he joined.
     
  19. GuitarWhisperer

    GuitarWhisperer TDPRI Member

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    A little late to the game, but in my experience, the type of failure you're exhibiting has nothing to do with the glue or technique, but rather the wood is oily and can't bond the glue, usually it's a darker wood such as the ones you've pictured as failing spontaneously. I've had that problem too, actually, notably Snakewood and certain Rosewoods, and Ziricote.
    My solution which seems to work is to wipe the surface with acetone, in one direction, using fresh paper towel surface each wipe so as not to redistribute the oils.
    Especially dramatic is the effect on snakewood, where without wiping I can literally peel the pieces apart with ease, or just start to peel them apart and they pop the rest of the way, total glue failure, whereas with acetone cleaning, the joint is as strong as any joint I've done with wood failure only and no glue failure.
    I've stopped using Titebond 2 a long time ago because the glue doesn't seem to dry as hard as Titebond original and seems gummy to me whereas Titebond 1 is not.
    Lately I'm using Titebond Extend Original and getting very good results.
     
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  20. LeroyBlues

    LeroyBlues Tele-Holic

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    What are the chances that the planer blades are effectively burnishing the edges of the wood? Guitar Whisperer is most likely on point.
     
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