Leo Fender: Amp design and harmonic content

Had a 74 pro reverb that was a gorgeous sounding amp and i wish i still had it..non master volume one..12" utah speakers sold on a whim and after a week i had a bruise on my bum the size of a saucer from kicking it
got a 65 DRRI a couple of years ago...not hugely impressed..not an inspiring amp.sold it
got a 68 custom twin reverb great surf amp for me...but thats it .
i like a lot of harmonic content and no neg feedback for everything but surf really. (Vox amps!!!)
but that 74 pro was by far the best of the fenders i owned sonically...big and breathy and versatile...45 watts started to break up about 4-5 on vol...i also liked that you could route the reverb through 1st channel on it..almost like outboard tank.
guy i sold it too called me and told me everything in it was original too.
i used to own 3 rickenbackers...fender amps really dont do those any favours...theyre actually quite dull sounding through them...put one into a vox though..

 

Just to add...harmonic content...chime and rich crunch on breakup with a 3D kind of quality
fenders don do that due to having the neg feedback...clean clean clean...breakup sounds flubby and mid scooped no real crunch. and much less "in your face"
its US sound vs Brit sound

 

I’m kinda stupid and inarticulate when it comes to breaking down what I like about an amp...also, there are amps that sound great when other people are using them but sound terrible when I try to play through them (I’m looking at you, Blackface Twin Reverb!)...so here’s the amps of different eras I like the most with my rig/style/technique:

-Tweed 4x10 Bassman
-Tweed Tremolux
-Tweed Champ
-Tweed Harvard
-Brownface (1963) Vibroverb
-Brownface Super (very rare, I know; I saw Kim Wilson using one for harp at Antone’s in the early 90’s!)
-Brownface Vibrolux
-Blackface Super Reverb
-Blackface Princeton
-Blackface Champ and/or Vibro Champ
-Silverface Bassman Ten (w/master volume...one of the best amps I ever owned and would still own if I were beefier and brawnier)
-Silverface Super Reverb (with or without master volume—I like master volume circuits...sue me)
-Silverface Champ or Vibro Champ
-Silverface Musicmaster Bass amp (overgrown Champ)
-Silverface Quad Reverb (Albert Collins!)
-Silverface Super Six (6x10...)
-‘63-reissue Vibroverb (my main amp since 1992)
-Blues Deluxe and Blues Deville (great amps, hands down)
-‘68 Custom Vibrolux (sorta reissue Silverface)
-‘68 Custom Princeton (sorta reissue Silverface)

...there’s others I like, and some I’ve missed, but these are the Amps that fit into my weird/rare/oddball taste...

 

Tweed...bassman? Brown, maybe a vibrolux. Blackface., I might have gone super or vibroverb, but there’s an easy case for the twin.

 

nothing wrong with any of those mate!
i ve got one of those epi BC30 amps...
if you like the ultralinear M/V fenders ..nowt wrong in that at all.
i like vox because theyr so 3d sounding and theyre sooo sensitive compared to fenders...due to that lack of neg feedback...fenders seem to die when i back the guitar off ...vox can go from a clean but full whisper with guitar down almost to nothing...then one twist of vol knob and your windows end up the next street and its raining roof slates...30 watts..yet twin reverb loud...if you need that power...i like to run mine hot and use the guitar knobs

 

As far as “lemonade”, I can’t really point to a specific thing that makes the ‘63-reissue Vibroverb work for me...

But it works so well (for me) for several reasons:

-It has a rich, full, punchy tone that can be coaxed into a brighter, jangly 60’s pop tone or a fatter, fuller blues sound or heavier classic rock colors or an excellent Outlaw Country growl...it’s never too shrill or boomy; the focused punch of the two ten-inch speakers allow a full spectrum of sounds yet always has a good, tight low end (and who doesn’t like a tight bottom?).

-It sounds good straight in from a guitar—no matter what type of guitar—but it works very well with pedals; depending on what you’re feeding into it, it can go from sweet Fender clean to rip-roaring raunch.

-One of the best tremolo effects ever developed by Fender (note: it’s the same circuit as the tweed vibrato/tremolo/whatever; very different from the Blackface version of the effect).

-Spectacular splashy reverb, which I barely use (I don’t use much reverb on my playing—but it’s there when I need it).

-It sounds great for both guitar and
harp/harmonica, which are my two main instruments (besides vocals). Many amps sound great for one or the other, but it’s tough to find one that sounds equally good for both.

-It’s loud enough for any venue but sounds good at lower volumes, too—it doesn’t wimp out as you turn it down (I’ve played it everywhere from coffee houses with 20 people up to large outdoor venues with 2000 people).

-It’s not that big (real estate is expensive on some stages), and it doesn’t weigh a ton, but it’s sturdy as can be.

-It looks cool (Yes, that’s important...)

The only two gripes:
-It stays very clean until you’re melting the faces of the people on the front row, so I often use an overdrive or (more recently) an attenuator...unless you’re playing a huge outdoor venue, you’re not going to get any breakup/natural overdrive, and even then, it won’t get dirty. Fortunately, though, it’s not shrill/bright clean, it’s rich/full clean.

-The stock Oxfart...(ahem)...Oxford-style speakers weren’t very good (The general consensus of the 63RIVV Community is that the speakers are the weak link of this whole design)...they just didn’t sound that great—not terrible, but not great. When they finally went kaput (after nine years of continuous and heavy use), I replaced them with some basic Eminences and have been very happy since.

 

also, when they released them besides the 59 bassman reissue... the BM had a SS recto plugged into an actual tube socket while the VV got a diode recto... why in the world?

 

The first generation "TV Front" tweeds are very different from the later 50's ones, the biggest difference being the octal preamp tubes(6SL7), which switched over to the nonal (7025) in '54 or so. The switch definitely added more lemonade into the mix. The octals tend to be extremely harmonically rich, very delicous in their way, but even they could be pretty bright and happy sounding. Jimmy Bryant's early tone (tele and a Pro amp) is a wonderful example of that sound. For later blackfaces, I'd suggest the bassman.To me, the lemonadeiest black face would have to be the vibrolux reverb.

 

I have nothing substantive to add but this is a neat idea, @theprofessor

I think I like to spike Leo's Lemonade because even with a Deluxe Reverb I turn up the volume until the bass and treble recede relative to the mids.

Then I'm happy.

 

Fenders are a mixed bag with negative feedback a lot had it but a lot didn't especially earlier on. And some of the ones that did had very little for example the 6g3 and 5c3.

As for the British, Vox may not have used NFB, but what about marshall? All their big amps used negative feedback and are strongly associated with the concept of "crunch".

 

So here are the questions for discussion:
(1) In your opinion, which amps of each era best embody Leo's ideal "lemonade" sound?
(2) What are your favorite amps of each era, and why?
(3) And, for a sillier question: How do you relate to "harmonic content"?

I'm not sure what Lemonade sound is. but for 2 and 3:
2) TWEED: Not a big fan of the tweed amps myself. Had a 5E3 back in the day which I sold in '75 for $75. nasty little thing. Played a 54 Pro I kinda liked so I'll pick that.
-In BROWN the Vibrolux is definitely it. Brown Deluxe probably #2. The Supers I had were great, but if I'm being picky seemed a bit dark or compressive to me.
-IN BF/SF I'm torn between the BFDR which I've used for over 40 years and of course the BFSR which if you ask me is the best amp of all time. The BFDR is more useful for me. But I've come to the conclusion that any BF without Reverb is the best generally. I no longer have the BFSR or the BFDR and have kept the non reverb Deluxe and now a Non Rev Pro. But I'm going to pick the BFSR anyway as "the best"!

3) Harmonic content: tough one, now we get into semantics and words which mean different things to different people! Speaking from a normal low volume playing standpoint:
-Multiple speakers seem to make a difference in A/B ing amps. 4x10 is hard to beat in providing a big voice with texture.
-The BFSR has big low mids available if you want them which some others dont have.
-Some Browns may be a bit middy for me and dont seem to provide the rich voice that many BF will give.
-The Brown Super seems more compressed which generally Fenders amps dont display as much as some amps, yet the Brown Deluxe doesn't, and rather is clean and nasal.
-I think what I like about the BF non reverb in general is the thicker tone but with plenty of highs available. I'm not into "sparkle" a lot.
- I was just thinking ....my preference of BF over Brown may be related to NFB differences.

 

that may even have been true. FWIU the early 90's was an uncertain time tubes, but they had enough forthought to use a tube socket SS recto in the bassman... why not extend the same treatment/logic to the VV... we'll probably never know.

 

LOL, Prof -- I think @Fiesta Red nailed it by listing 20 (count 'em 20) favorite amps.

I realize you were asking relative to what you note as Leo tone -- 'clear, bright, and punchy.' That's tricky for me -- are we talking lap steel? Les Paul and Mary Ford? Tommy Tedesco? Name someone after Tommy? Umm, Buck Owens?

In any case, I guess that tone trail does end up in front of the TR, but I'm not sure that's the road that created most of the *iconic* Fender tones. Off the top of my head, I think of some of these...

Iconic small tweed:

• Champs (and Princetons)
• 5_3 (in several iterations)
• Harvard (Steve Cropper is my favorite clear, bright, punchy player)
• 5F11; or does it belong with brownface?

Iconic big tweed:

• 5F6a
• Tweed Twins, Hi and Lo
• Super
• Bandmaster
• Tremolux 5G9

Iconic brown and blonde:

• 6G2
• 6G3
• Vibrolux (Knopfler...)
• Most of the blondes, AFAIK

Iconic BF / SF:

• VibroChamp and Champ
• PR (Tedesco, Mike Campbell, etc. etc.)
• DR (thousands of recordings, millions of shows)
• VR
• VV
• Super Reverb
  
• Bassman
• TR
• Rivera Super Champ

And that's off the top of my head, plus I don't know much about later Fender amps...

EDIT: How do I relate to 'harmonic content'? Very happily.

 

I have to imagine the 5F8-A tweed twin would be the cleanest tweed at any given volume level. "Imagine" because sadly I haven't had the pleasure of playing one. It's twice the power of the tweed super, has a more modern tonestack, and uses a higher headroom phase inverter.

The later Blonde and Brown amps are very similar to Blackface circuits so if you're looking for the cleanest one I think it's still going to be the twin.

 

true enough.
marshall amps from what i recall were based on the bassman but with substituted components due to availability in england...marshall were deliberately built as loud crunchy amps as people wanted more and more drive in their sound... friend of mines got a lovely old marshall combo all tube...
ive been playing for 50 yrs and gigging for 40plus.
been repairing and rebuilding guitars for same length of time...my mentor was a man called Jim Cairns
he made pickups for burns and was chris reas guitar tech for years...what that man didnt know about guitars wasnt worth knowing.