Large serpentine belt wheel/ pulley

thesamhill

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@cometazzi LOL! I can respect the curiosity :)

I've got a few old tools from my grandfather's place that could use new motors.

I'm also thinking about an electric variation on the Gravely that can push around a snow shovel, a mulch wagon, etc. I don't have a huge yard or driveway so a corded power plant would be viable for lots of yardworky kinds of jobs around here.


But... if I'm being honest, this is the project that really sings to my inner Frankenstein, lol:



It's COMPLETELY ridiculous. I fully admit it. There are any number of ways to keep a rhythm that are far easier and more versatile- loopers, drum machines, Trios, actual drummers, etc. There are acoustic drum machines that use door lock motors to play acoustic drums in analog:


And there's at least one actual robot band that leaves anything I could do in the dust:




So I don't know what I think I'm doing but... it's in my head now :)

The tambourine machine works pretty well on its own, but it needs a flywheel to maintain the beat if you want to add instruments that play less than four beats per measure because the load slows the motor a little on those beats and throws off the rhythm.

So I need to run a high-RPM motor to move one or more high-RPM flywheels and then reduce the speed from 50,000 BPM to something I can actually play along with, lol

Turns out the exercise equipment does a lot of what I need. The poly-v belts, bearings, and pulleys are sturdy and quiet. There's even a big ol' magnetic braking system on the big ol' flywheel of the exercise bike so I can end the percussion relatively close to the actual end of the song :) But...

If I want something like JT's machine that does more than 4 beats, you need to really slow down the axle pushing the beaters. Like, a 120 bmp song is 30 RPM for the 4-beat tambourine machine. For 8 beats you'd need 15 RPM and 16 beats is 7.5RPM. Some of that reduction can come from slowing the motor but, like I said, then you lose momentum on the flywheels and that's how you overcome the unequal load on, say, beats 2 and 4.

I could run a series of smaller reductions but that's adding noise and complexity, so one large pulley on the beater axle would be nice.

What can I say? When I go down a rabbit hole I go down the whole way, lol
 

cometazzi

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@cometazzi LOL! I can respect the curiosity :)

I've got a few old tools from my grandfather's place that could use new motors.

I'm also thinking about an electric variation on the Gravely that can push around a snow shovel, a mulch wagon, etc. I don't have a huge yard or driveway so a corded power plant would be viable for lots of yardworky kinds of jobs around here.


But... if I'm being honest, this is the project that really sings to my inner Frankenstein, lol:



It's COMPLETELY ridiculous. I fully admit it. There are any number of ways to keep a rhythm that are far easier and more versatile- loopers, drum machines, Trios, actual drummers, etc. There are acoustic drum machines that use door lock motors to play acoustic drums in analog:


And there's at least one actual robot band that leaves anything I could do in the dust:




So I don't know what I think I'm doing but... it's in my head now :)

The tambourine machine works pretty well on its own, but it needs a flywheel to maintain the beat if you want to add instruments that play less than four beats per measure because the load slows the motor a little on those beats and throws off the rhythm.

So I need to run a high-RPM motor to move one or more high-RPM flywheels and then reduce the speed from 50,000 BPM to something I can actually play along with, lol

Turns out the exercise equipment does a lot of what I need. The poly-v belts, bearings, and pulleys are sturdy and quiet. There's even a big ol' magnetic braking system on the big ol' flywheel of the exercise bike so I can end the percussion relatively close to the actual end of the song :) But...

If I want something like JT's machine that does more than 4 beats, you need to really slow down the axle pushing the beaters. Like, a 120 bmp song is 30 RPM for the 4-beat tambourine machine. For 8 beats you'd need 15 RPM and 16 beats is 7.5RPM. Some of that reduction can come from slowing the motor but, like I said, then you lose momentum on the flywheels and that's how you overcome the unequal load on, say, beats 2 and 4.

I could run a series of smaller reductions but that's adding noise and complexity, so one large pulley on the beater axle would be nice.

What can I say? When I go down a rabbit hole I go down the whole way, lol


I like it! And I $110% approve of this line of thinking! In fact, I was going to link this:



but figured I was being too zany. I've also seen the robotic band, and it's something I've considered tinkering with myself to some extent- Either a series of solenoids along a guitar neck or along the bottom of a harp-like instrument. Electrified, of course. Bonus would be small rosin-coated rollers that lean forward and 'bow' the strings like a cello. Run by a computer, a microcontroller, or an oldschool paper program similar to a player piano.

All stuff that I've dreamt up and mused since my teens or so. Butt, here I am staring down 50 and nothing has been done. So yes, I dig your project ideas and support your ambition. The question being if you'd have multiple drums (the rotating one with the actuators, like the music box) that you could swap out for different rhythms?

Also, something that I thought of while reading about speed reductions are the stacked V-belt pulleys that I've seen in the tops of drill presses, and also (I think?) under rider mowers:

1669746158873.png

They won't help with the initial motor coupling, but a few of these down the line might be able to reduce the speed more. And don't count out your basic 10-speed or 18-speed Mountain Bike chain/gears/derailleur arrangements.

Another thing to consider is using a Pulse-Width Modulating speed control on the motor itself. I'd be a little surprised if treadmills don't actually do exactly that to vary the speed. Not only could you dial in the tempo you want, but you could also change it on the fly!
 

Alamo

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I used to drive a small DAF 55 car . It could drive as fast in reverse as in forward.
the transmission was one of it's kind :cool:

 

thesamhill

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Harrisburg, PA area
Ha! I'm among my people! Still, long response alert- you got me talking on my current favorite obsession, lol



Pshaw! No such thing, lol


here I am staring down 50 and nothing has been done

That's when I started!

I began with this: I figure a simple undifferentiated metronome beat is the ultimate in usefulness, if kind of boring to listen to. It's any beat, any rhythm, any time sig.

So the tambourine machine is a legitimate project and not just a "proof of concept" thing.

When I started this I made a deal with myself: the first one had to be a single tambourine, and it had to be a straight up 4-arm wheel.

Once that existed I could make the NEXT one as complicated as I want. :) You definitely see what you do and don't care about after that first one.

Again, this is all me talking to me, so the "rules" are all made up in my own head. That doesn't mean I can just break them tho :)


And don't count out your basic 10-speed or 18-speed Mountain Bike chain/gears/derailleur arrangements.

Oh yeah I love hacking up bikes, theres like 10 amazing bits of engineering on each one, lol.

I don't have great luck keeping them quiet though. So for a musical device, that exercise bike whoosh is a nice bonus over the chain noise and clicking of the freewheel.

Pulse-Width Modulating speed control

You def want a controller, regardless of belt/ gear ratio-

I have a PWM controller on the tamb machine, it's the thing in the blue box with the dial. I have an SCR for the treadmill motor which in my understanding is basically the same function of speed control, you're just putting the dial down BEFORE the rectification to DC vs AFTER (which is what the PWM does).

One or the other is necessary if you want to dial in the BPM between songs without belt changes, etc.

SCR controller vid:



The problem is this: the motors are pretty strong, but they do lose torque at lower speeds. So they will spin slightly slower if they have to lift two beaters at a time than if they have to lift one. That gets more and more obvious the slower the motor is going.

So if you have a tamb hit on every beat (so in 4-4 time, on the 1 2 3 4) but say a snare on just the 1 and the 3, you get a slight slowing of the axle from the two-beater load on the 1 and 3, over what you get from the one-beater load on the 2 and 4.

Its not much but it's noticable. To me anyway.

So the value of changing the pulley ratio and adding the flywheel is that it evens the load out a bit by increasing the overall motor speed and by adding the momentum factor. It keeps the rhythm tighter.

The question being if you'd have multiple drums (the rotating one with the actuators, like the music box)

Id probably have maybe 3 drums- kick, snare, hat, or like, bucket, tamb, and something that makes a hat sound- and then have multiple beaters and wheels- 4-4, 6-8, swing 4, etc. Lift the beaters I wasn't using for any given song up off their wheels and hold them up with magnets or Velcro or flip them over the back to hang down so they don't play.
 

cometazzi

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Ha! I'm among my people! Still, long response alert- you got me talking on my current favorite obsession, lol




Pshaw! No such thing, lol




That's when I started!

I began with this: I figure a simple undifferentiated metronome beat is the ultimate in usefulness, if kind of boring to listen to. It's any beat, any rhythm, any time sig.

So the tambourine machine is a legitimate project and not just a "proof of concept" thing.

When I started this I made a deal with myself: the first one had to be a single tambourine, and it had to be a straight up 4-arm wheel.

Once that existed I could make the NEXT one as complicated as I want. :) You definitely see what you do and don't care about after that first one.

Again, this is all me talking to me, so the "rules" are all made up in my own head. That doesn't mean I can just break them tho :)




Oh yeah I love hacking up bikes, theres like 10 amazing bits of engineering on each one, lol.

I don't have great luck keeping them quiet though. So for a musical device, that exercise bike whoosh is a nice bonus over the chain noise and clicking of the freewheel.



You def want a controller, regardless of belt/ gear ratio-

I have a PWM controller on the tamb machine, it's the thing in the blue box with the dial. I have an SCR for the treadmill motor which in my understanding is basically the same function of speed control, you're just putting the dial down BEFORE the rectification to DC vs AFTER (which is what the PWM does).

One or the other is necessary if you want to dial in the BPM between songs without belt changes, etc.

SCR controller vid:



The problem is this: the motors are pretty strong, but they do lose torque at lower speeds. So they will spin slightly slower if they have to lift two beaters at a time than if they have to lift one. That gets more and more obvious the slower the motor is going.

So if you have a tamb hit on every beat (so in 4-4 time, on the 1 2 3 4) but say a snare on just the 1 and the 3, you get a slight slowing of the axle from the two-beater load on the 1 and 3, over what you get from the one-beater load on the 2 and 4.

Its not much but it's noticable. To me anyway.

So the value of changing the pulley ratio and adding the flywheel is that it evens the load out a bit by increasing the overall motor speed and by adding the momentum factor. It keeps the rhythm tighter.



Id probably have maybe 3 drums- kick, snare, hat, or like, bucket, tamb, and something that makes a hat sound- and then have multiple beaters and wheels- 4-4, 6-8, swing 4, etc. Lift the beaters I wasn't using for any given song up off their wheels and hold them up with magnets or Velcro or flip them over the back to hang down so they don't play.


Ah, I see what you mean about motors slowing, and having flywheels to keep the momentum. Makes loads of sense!

When I was saying "drum" I believe I was referring to the "wheels" part of the "beaters and wheels". I.e., a universal setup that you could attach the wheel (with those white sharkfin actuators on it). Different wheels set up for different sequences. Or even something like a giant wide 'belt' that rolls around the business end of the wheel. Long enough to do a couple different figures. The trick being you'd have to mount the actuators to it with a plate behind them or something so that when they roll around the wheel, some skinny idler wheels can run over the plates and keep the actuators from flopping over or something stupid. The more I think about it the more problem-prone it sounds, heh.

Sounds like a cool project, and it sounds like you've got a whole lot of stuff figured out!
 

thesamhill

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When I was saying "drum" I believe I was referring to the "wheels" part of the "beaters and wheels". I.e., a universal setup that you could attach the wheel (with those white sharkfin actuators on it). Different wheels set up for different sequences. Or even something like a giant wide 'belt' that rolls around the business end of the wheel. Long enough to do a couple different figures.

Oh right. Lol. Yeah the roller drum would make things easier to switch around.

So...

I may or may not have recently added this to my Christmas list:



Depending on the magnetic-ness of the stainless, some wooden shark fins with dowels that fit into the punchouts and some countersink magnets on the bottom would make an easily-configurable drum roller.

Plus, per the documentation:
- This leaky pot is high- grade, high performance but price is more reasonable.

- Good performance and fine workmanship pot is always provided us.

So that's good.

Let me know if you ever tackle the project! I'll be happy to share all the things not to do, I tend to be really good at identifying those :)
 

cometazzi

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Oh right. Lol. Yeah the roller drum would make things easier to switch around.

So...

I may or may not have recently added this to my Christmas list:



Depending on the magnetic-ness of the stainless, some wooden shark fins with dowels that fit into the punchouts and some countersink magnets on the bottom would make an easily-configurable drum roller.

Plus, per the documentation:
- This leaky pot is high- grade, high performance but price is more reasonable.

- Good performance and fine workmanship pot is always provided us.

So that's good.

Let me know if you ever tackle the project! I'll be happy to share all the things not to do, I tend to be really good at identifying those :)


Link didn't work, but do you mean this?

1669780714978.png


Some types of stainless steel are magnetic and some are not. The Amazon ad doesn't mention what kind this is. IIRC it's 304 and 316 that aren't so magnetic, and those are the ones that are considered "high grade" because they're more rust-resistant than magnetic ones. Also, it looks tapered- the bottom being a smaller diameter than the top. Maybe. I'm not a metallurgist and this is not financial advice.

I still can't get over the big 'belt' or 'track' system. Slats of wood connected like tank tracks with the actuators mounted on them.

53 Belair Guy said:
- This leaky pot is high- grade, high performance but price is more reasonable.


- Good performance and fine workmanship pot is always provided us.

Don't forget:

-Nullify
 

thesamhill

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Harrisburg, PA area

I just got a chance to look at this. The whole CVT thing is so interesting. I drove a Caliber once and I REALLY wanted it to shift! It almost got uncomfortable-feeling, like watching sometime else holding their breath a long time.

That DAF 55 is a total charmer tho!

@cometazzi yeah that's the one. I feel fairly sure that it's not the high grade stainless steel, for some reason. Nullify

I just realized that minnow buckets have inserts with holes too. Not quite as many but maybe enough to not have to drill very many myself. (I tell you what, I can go through pilot bits pretty quick) Plus they're regular (galvanized) steel so they're magnetic and they aren't tapered at all.

The belt system would totally work. I'm pretty sure I could not pull it off myself, and almost certainly not with any level of noise control. That's a lot of hinges to keep up on. Plus I'm a guy in a garage welding bits of trashed exercise equipment together :) so adding complexity is generally the wrong direction to head in my case
 

Wound_Up

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Automotive crank, pulleys are usually around 8 to 10 inches. You'd have to find the right one.

Supercharger pullies can get up to 8 inches and larger, also. They use a few different serpentine belt widths so you have to make sure you get the right one.
 




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