Laminated wood (all of it) vs HPL with a solid top

[Nogoodnamesleft]

I've had my eye on an inexpensive 12 string acoustic. I was set to buy a used Epiphone DR-212 - laminated top but wood. But recently a Martin D-X2E 12 string has popped up on the horizon. I'm wondering if I should take a chance on it.

Pluses on the Epi - inexpensive, wood laminate guitars have been around since dinosaurs.

Pluses on the Martin - solid top (although I'll be using it plugged in a lot), comes with a pickup installed (Martin E1 - is that good?), likely better tuners.

Obviously one is almost three times the price, but worth it? Any experience with that model of Epiphone - are the tuners decent or not? Typically in the past my attempts at being penny wise have been pound foolish, and this Martin has come along at a suspiciously good time.

 

[Freeman Keller]

I really have no problems with laminated guitars. The old laminated Yamahas sound very nice thank you and over the years other manufacturers have produced fine guitars. Like most people I prefer solid tops but if it sounds good it really doesn't matter. I do have some problems with high pressure laminates, I've had a couple on my work bench with glue failures and they are kind of hard to fix. Bottom line on the materials would be to play the guitar and decide if I liked it.

With that out of the way, I would be very critical of any used 12 string. I'm a 12 string player, currently own three (two which I built) and I'm frequently asked to repair them. A 12 string tuned to concert with light gauge string (10 - 42) has roughly 1 and a half times the tension of a sixer with lights (not twice as many think). That can be hard on a guitar, so inspect all the usual things with a lot more care than you normally would. Check the neck angle, I see lots of used 12s that need a reset). Structural issues (bridge, braces, top belly, yadda yadda). A good twelve string can have as nice an action as a six, most do not.

I am a huge advocate of tuning a 12 string down one or two semi tones and capoing back if you need it to be at concert. I was brought up listening to Leadbelly and Pete Seeger and Leo Kottke - for me the sound of a twelve string should be tuned down.

You say you'll be plugging in, I have no experience with the pickup in the Martin. I have installed K&K's in several 12 strings and highly recommend that if you buy a guitar that doesn't have a pup.

So my humble advice is to play and listen to both, then do a very thorough evaluation. If it needs a neck reset probably neither is worth the cost. Other relatively inexpensive 12's include the Seagull S12 and Taylors 150 and 335.

Good luck, twelve strings are the grand pianos of the guitar world but get a good one.

 

[Dismalhead]

I've had three all laminate steel string acoustics. One was a Washburn and next to my friends' solid topped acoustics it sounded like I was playing a cardboard box with strings on it - terrible. But then I've had two inexpensive Ibanez's - like the ones that come as a kit with a stand and a book for $169. Both sound acceptable enough to take to a jam and have a good time with. I've still got one, a 12-string; I only pull it out once in a while but it's lots of fun. So I'd say it depends on who makes it.

 

[Chiogtr4x]

I'd go with the Martin,

IMO, they know how to engineer that good, full-bodied Martin tone into their cheaper, 'alternative materials/build' models.
( I'm not a 12-string player, but I'd probably tune down and use a capo)

As for Epiphone acoustics, I have just never played or heard one that did not rise above producing anything more than what I call a 'generic' tone.

The guitars put out a sound ( just notes) without any kind of fullness, or body, nothing inspiring. Sometimes you don't pickup on that until you've tried or heard better.

Even the cheap Martins, give you a quality tone.

 

[Nogoodnamesleft]

Well, I went and tried them out. I ended up buying the Martin. In spite of my skepticism it really sounded like a Martin to me.

The Epiphone was pretty nice sounding. If the Martin hadn't shown up I likely would have taken it. But side by side the Martin appealed more.

No pics yet. I had too much to do yesterday but hopefully this weekend I'll get a chance.

 

[robt57]

12 string cedar top for me all the way.

 

[985plowboy]

Freeman Keller is wise.

 

[zombywoof]

There is, of course laminate and then there is laminate. On one hand you have that which is fashioned with even layers of the same wood glued together. Then you have the kind which at its best a layer of something such as poplar wood sandwiched in between two nice layers of veneer.

The definite advantage of at least a laminate body is that it stiffens the back and rim. But while I have owned guitars such as a 1960 Gibson J200 and 1956 Epiphone FT79 with a laminate body, I do not have enough time under my belt with guitars sporting a laminate top to have an opinion that would be worth anything. The rap on them though is that they will sound the same as the day you bought the guitar. So, no chance of them acquiring the parched dryness or hair trigger response a spruce top takes on over the decades.

 

[GuitarsBuicks]

I've had my eye on an inexpensive 12 string acoustic. I was set to buy a used Epiphone DR-212 - laminated top but wood. But recently a Martin D-X2E 12 string has popped up on the horizon. I'm wondering if I should take a chance on it.

Pluses on the Epi - inexpensive, wood laminate guitars have been around since dinosaurs.

Pluses on the Martin - solid top (although I'll be using it plugged in a lot), comes with a pickup installed (Martin E1 - is that good?), likely better tuners.

Obviously one is almost three times the price, but worth it? Any experience with that model of Epiphone - are the tuners decent or not? Typically in the past my attempts at being penny wise have been pound foolish, and this Martin has come along at a suspiciously good time.

Stick with all laminate, or go with a solid top over laminated. The HPL stuff is not worth it. Also the neck is not solid wood on those Martins. I had one. Trust me. Go with the laminate. If you are going to spend the amount of money it is going to take to buy that Martin HpL 12-string, just go buy a used Taylor 355 12-string. They are excellent instruments and can be had for right around $650.

*Edit: If you can find one of those $650 Taylor 355 12-strings they are all solid wood and play with like a 6-string. Arguably the best “modern” production 12-string made…although they have been discontinued for some time now. There are plenty of the them on the used market.

 

[GuitarsBuicks]

There is, of course laminate and then there is laminate. On one hand you have that which is fashioned with even layers of the same wood glued together. Then you have the kind which at its best a layer of something such as poplar wood sandwiched in between two nice layers of veneer.

The definite advantage of at least a laminate body is that it stiffens the back and rim. But while I have owned guitars such as a 1960 Gibson J200 and 1956 Epiphone FT79 with a laminate body, I do not have enough time under my belt with guitars sporting a laminate top to have an opinion that would be worth anything. The rap on them though is that they will sound the same as the day you bought the guitar. So, no chance of them acquiring the parched dryness or hair trigger response a spruce top takes on over the decades.

I would also note here that most of the Godin guitars have a solid top with laminate back and sides that are all of the same wood. 3-ply if I remember correctly. They make great instruments for their price point. Although I’ll be honest…I have yet to find a 12-string in one of their lines that I like more than the Taylor 355. Not that I have stopped looking or trying every one I can get my hands on. I don’t like Taylor 6-strings…or at least I have never found one under 10k that I liked enough to buy. (Only one I ever found was more than my first 3 cars and my tractor combined. It was a Koa over sinker mahogany jumbo dread with a price tag of $14,995. With a beautiful tobacco burst and their ‘tree of life’ style inlay on the fretboard all in light wood over ebony.) On the other hand, their 12-strings are excellent. I have played a number of them and they are all good. I just happen to only need 1.

 

[stephent2]

I'm a fan of the Martin X series,.. great guitars, feel like a Martin, sound like a Martin,.. at a mighty fine price. Congrats!

 

[Swirling Snow]

Congrats on your purchase!

 

[GuitarsBuicks]

I'm a fan of the Martin X series,.. great guitars, feel like a Martin, sound like a Martin,.. at a mighty fine price. Congrats!

The interesting thing about the Martin X series to me is that at the local open mics I go to, the do not sound anything like my A&L Americana when plugged in. There are at least 4 separate X series guitars there on any given night…My guitar blows theirs out of the water every time. I’m just saying, in my experience the X series is most definitely not up to snuff. Granted sometimes it’s the player not the guitar, but I would take anything Godin over an X series as far as laminate guitars are concerned. At least in my experience. I would also add that as an acoustic the A&L Americana trounces their X-series quite sufficiently.

 

[stephent2]

The interesting thing about the Martin X series to me is that at the local open mics I go to, the do not sound anything like my A&L Americana when plugged in. There are at least 4 separate X series guitars there on any given night…My guitar blows theirs out of the water every time. I’m just saying, in my experience the X series is most definitely not up to snuff. Granted sometimes it’s the player not the guitar, but I would take anything Godin over an X series as far as laminate guitars are concerned. At least in my experience. I would also add that as an acoustic the A&L Americana trounces their X-series quite sufficiently.

We all like what we like (or own),.. I'm happy you like your A&L. The Buick thing makes me question your conclusions though.

My perspective on X series Martins comes from a lifetime of owning a couple dozen Martins (and and an equal number boutique acoustics) from X to custom shop,... but what do I know?

 

[GuitarsBuicks]

The Buick thing makes me question your conclusions though.

Guitars, Cadillacs was already taken…besides,

Question and knock the Buicks all you want, I realize most people think they are and were lesser if not completely terrible cars, and that may even be true, although I personally have not found a truly bad model. Individual cars sure, but cars get abused around these parts between the floods, the winters, the deer, and the salt on the roads in 5 months of the year. But you will likely never find a better V6 full size sedan than the GM 3800 made from ‘97-05. Those Park Avenues and LeSabers are proven to be damn near bulletproof. Not to mention that I have documented proof that they are good for over 400,000 miles without major repairs. There are obviously things that go bad after 20-30 years, but it’s rarely anything major. Plugs, wires, coils, sensors, etc. If I still had my old phone I’d upload pictures of the wreck that would have killed the occupants of a lesser car. Even the police said that if it had been any other car the occupants would have been dead. It was a drivers side T-bone where the other vehicle went up over the car, and across the windshield. They also have the industry record for their entire run of having some of the best crash ratings in the world according to the insurance company. Not to mention I’ve gotten 42 miles to the gallon with mine on three separate road trips with 87 octane gas…in a 4000 pound 16 foot long car. Question all you like, but they are and always were worth their price tag. I can’t speak to the new ones because I have not been in a newer Buick. Why would I when I can drive a Buick rides better than my best friend’s new Mercedes, gets better mileage, is safer, and makes more power horsepower? If nothing else at least I can get any parts I may need without waiting 14 months for it to be shipped from another country. I can get 99.99998% of the parts off the shelf in any parts store in the country. Granted the 455 of the ‘70s was not their finest engine, it was called a boat anchor for a reason. But that was a design flaw that was easily remedied. The oil return ports in the upper head were too small when it was run as a racing engine. Meaning that the oil would get stuck in the heads too long.

Also the Cadillacs with the North Star modular engines require premium gasoline. Otherwise it will literally blow every single sensor from bumper to bumper. I speak from personal experience, and the combine experience go 3 generations of mechanics. Which means gas is nearly quadruple the price to fill the tank. In stead of being $35-40 for a tank, it’s closer to $90-120. Also they are not great engines because they are modular and tend to develop multiple issues as they approach 100k. The V8 engine is literally two V4 blocks bolted together and the gasket between them tends to leak. As for the modular ‘kick down’ engine of the 1980’s it was a great concept, but it was ultimately a failure because the cylinders would not re-engage when they were supposed to. Which ultimately lead to the entire feature being bypassed in the onboard computer. Not to mention, they have much lower safety ratings and Rash test scores than the Buicks I mentioned above.

As for Ford…the technology in some of their vehicles is the exact same technology that was being used on the 1958 Ford Edsel and the 1963 Ford Falcon/Fairlane…just saying. Not including the fact that there is a plug in most Ford vehicles which has remained unchanged since the 1980’s and it is has been proven to be the cause of many fires in Ford related vehicles. As a matter of fact we had that happen on my mother’s Ford.

Dodge, well, there’s a good chance if you get one of their sedans that the underside will be rusted quickly because they no longer build their vehicles out of rust resistant metals the way Ford and GM do. Not to mention that most newer Dodge sedans do not have lower control arms and lower ball joints which means that if you get into a crash, that tire is going under the car and the car is more likely to flip because all got the control forms to from the top, not the bottom and back side. As early as 1980 GM was experimenting with rust resistant metals that were not aluminum. The problem is they didn’t build the frames and sub frames out of them. Which is why the vehicles develop problems. Not to mention that Dodge/Chrystler engines tend to have problems with the rings in their cylinders, and tend to have non-waterproof coil-over spark plugs which means that when it rains there is a good chance the vehicle will not start.

Don’t even get me started on all the problems and safety issues with Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Honda, Hyundai, and Mitsubishi. All I will say is that at least when the airbag in a Buick goes off, it does not launch metal schrapnel into the vehicle the way these vehicles do. They are all under recall because of their airbags among other things. Call me crazy but I like having a neutral lockout on the transmission. Some of these brands mentioned above do not have this, which means that should you ever need to put the vehicle in neutral at speed, it is not an option. Neutral lockout exists for a reason.

Stepping off the soapbox now…

 

[stephent2]

Guitars, Cadillacs was already taken…besides,

Question and knock the Buicks all you want, I realize most people think they are and were lesser if not completely terrible cars, and that may even be true, although I personally have not found a truly bad model. Individual cars sure, but cars get abused around these parts between the floods, the winters, the deer, and the salt on the roads in 5 months of the year. But you will likely never find a better V6 full size sedan than the GM 3800 made from ‘97-05. Those Park Avenues and LeSabers are proven to be damn near bulletproof. Not to mention that I have documented proof that they are good for over 400,000 miles without major repairs. There are obviously things that go bad after 20-30 years, but it’s rarely anything major. Plugs, wires, coils, sensors, etc. If I still had my old phone I’d upload pictures of the wreck that would have killed the occupants of a lesser car. Even the police said that if it had been any other car the occupants would have been dead. It was a drivers side T-bone where the other vehicle went up over the car, and across the windshield. They also have the industry record for their entire run of having some of the best crash ratings in the world according to the insurance company. Not to mention I’ve gotten 42 miles to the gallon with mine on three separate road trips with 87 octane gas…in a 4000 pound 16 foot long car. Question all you like, but they are and always were worth their price tag. I can’t speak to the new ones because I have not been in a newer Buick. Why would I when I can drive a Buick rides better than my best friend’s new Mercedes, gets better mileage, is safer, and makes more power horsepower? If nothing else at least I can get any parts I may need without waiting 14 months for it to be shipped from another country. I can get 99.99998% of the parts off the shelf in any parts store in the country. Granted the 455 of the ‘70s was not their finest engine, it was called a boat anchor for a reason. But that was a design flaw that was easily remedied. The oil return ports in the upper head were too small when it was run as a racing engine. Meaning that the oil would get stuck in the heads too long.

Also the Cadillacs with the North Star modular engines require premium gasoline. Otherwise it will literally blow every single sensor from bumper to bumper. I speak from personal experience, and the combine experience go 3 generations of mechanics. Which means gas is nearly quadruple the price to fill the tank. In stead of being $35-40 for a tank, it’s closer to $90-120. Also they are not great engines because they are modular and tend to develop multiple issues as they approach 100k. The V8 engine is literally two V4 blocks bolted together and the gasket between them tends to leak. As for the modular ‘kick down’ engine of the 1980’s it was a great concept, but it was ultimately a failure because the cylinders would not re-engage when they were supposed to. Which ultimately lead to the entire feature being bypassed in the onboard computer. Not to mention, they have much lower safety ratings and Rash test scores than the Buicks I mentioned above.

As for Ford…the technology in some of their vehicles is the exact same technology that was being used on the 1958 Ford Edsel and the 1963 Ford Falcon/Fairlane…just saying. Not including the fact that there is a plug in most Ford vehicles which has remained unchanged since the 1980’s and it is has been proven to be the cause of many fires in Ford related vehicles. As a matter of fact we had that happen on my mother’s Ford.

Dodge, well, there’s a good chance if you get one of their sedans that the underside will be rusted quickly because they no longer build their vehicles out of rust resistant metals the way Ford and GM do. Not to mention that most newer Dodge sedans do not have lower control arms and lower ball joints which means that if you get into a crash, that tire is going under the car and the car is more likely to flip because all got the control forms to from the top, not the bottom and back side. As early as 1980 GM was experimenting with rust resistant metals that were not aluminum. The problem is they didn’t build the frames and sub frames out of them. Which is why the vehicles develop problems. Not to mention that Dodge/Chrystler engines tend to have problems with the rings in their cylinders, and tend to have non-waterproof coil-over spark plugs which means that when it rains there is a good chance the vehicle will not start.

Don’t even get me started on all the problems and safety issues with Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Honda, Hyundai, and Mitsubishi. All I will say is that at least when the airbag in a Buick goes off, it does not launch metal schrapnel into the vehicle the way these vehicles do. They are all under recall because of their airbags among other things. Call me crazy but I like having a neutral lockout on the transmission. Some of these brands mentioned above do not have this, which means that should you ever need to put the vehicle in neutral at speed, it is not an option. Neutral lockout exists for a reason.

Stepping off the soapbox now…

Thanks for your illuminating review of Martin X series guitars.

 

[GuitarsBuicks]

Thanks for your illuminating review of Martin X series guitars.

Pretty sure it had nothing to do with Martin X series guitars.

 

[ronzhd]

The interesting thing about the Martin X series to me is that at the local open mics I go to, the do not sound anything like my A&L Americana when plugged in. There are at least 4 separate X series guitars there on any given night…My guitar blows theirs out of the water every time. I’m just saying, in my experience the X series is most definitely not up to snuff. Granted sometimes it’s the player not the guitar, but I would take anything Godin over an X series as far as laminate guitars are concerned. At least in my experience. I would also add that as an acoustic the A&L Americana trounces their X-series quite sufficiently.

Bro, slow your roll, lol. We get what you like, and we all have opinions.

 

[Jakedog]

@Freeman Keller mentioned HPL glue failures. They are real. I remember once about ten years back I was playing a duo show on a sunny patio. It was a hot day. We were in direct sun. The woman I was working for was playing one of those black X series Martins that is all HPL. That thing came completely apart. Just disintegrated. About half way through the first set she said “It’s gotta be my imagination but I feel like my action is getting higher on every song. That can’t happen, right?” It was happening. By halfway through the second set it wouldn’t tune at all. The action was on the moon. The entire thing was separating everywhere it was glued together.

Granted- 90+ degrees, in direct sunlight, black guitar. Still… that was enough to tell me I don’t ever need to own one of those.

FWIW my Tak was just fine. It was also not black, and not made of glue.

 

[schmee]

I dont think I would go with a laminated acoustic with an online purchase. I'd need to play it first. Some sound just dead compared with solid wood. Others not too bad. Plenty of solid acoustics are out there. I've heard enough bad things about lower end Martins I would be very careful buying them in general...

whooops... this thread is from March.