Laminate versus Carved archtop

[Telekat 100]

Trying to understand the pros and cons of laminate versus carved for an archtop with a pickup.

Say there are two guitars, identical in every way, except one is laminate and the other carved. What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?

 

[Peegoo]

Carved tops require careful control of humidity to prevent drying out and cracking.

Laminated/pressed tops are far more robust.

If the guitar is a non-electrified true hollowbody, a carved top generally projects better.

If the guitar has a center block and pickups, e.g., ES-335, etc., a laminated body makes far better sense than a carved top.

 

[Dan German]

If it’s just for doing yeoman work, acoustic or electric, laminate is fine. Especially when a good laminate is compared with budget carved top.

 

[Guerilla Electro]

If you want to play loud or with any gain , a carved top will feed back uncontrolably , laminate will still feed back a lot , but it can be controled by palm muting and pressing your arm on the top , it quickly becomes an automatism , you don't even realize you're doing it .

 

[Swirling Snow]

There is a delicacy to a good carved top that needs silence to be appreciated.

Most folks are surrounded by enough noise on stage a laminate is fine.

Using either one as a weapon is frowned upon, but otherwise, a laminate can be treated as a solidbody, while the carved top should be treated like an acoustic guitar.

 

[BigDaddyLH]

 

[kuch]

My ES-330 is a 3 ply laminate hollow body. Sounds great to me and obviously to many Jazz greats and rock and rollers.

 

[philosofriend]

Most of the time carved tops are spruce, a light soft wood, easy to carve. Laminated tops are almost always maple or other hardwoods. The laminated arched tops originally helped reduce feedback problems as in Gibson's 125, 175 series of hollow guitars. Then they made the braces heavier and heavier to cut down on low-pitched feedback. That line of thought led to the 335.
I don't think anyone has been concerned with making two models of guitar the same in every way except one carved and the other laminated. Spruce archtops are for folks who want a traditional jazz tone who won't be playing loud enough to feed back. Laminated guitars are optimized for a halfway-to-a-solidbody tone that can be played in a loud band. There aren't many customers wanting something in between these two ideals.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Trying to understand the pros and cons of laminate versus carved for an archtop with a pickup.

Say there are two guitars, identical in every way, except one is laminate and the other carved. What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?

The problem is, there aren't two guitars, identical in every way....

Carved archtops came first, the Gibson L5 and all the wonderful Epis, Stromberg, D'Angelico, D/Aquisto and so forth. They are all acoustic guitars altho some have pickups added. They are designed and optimized for their acoustic sound and in most cases it is pretty unique - quick attack, short sustain, string to string separation - all those things that we think of in a good jazz guitar. Their tops are almost always carved out of a big wedge of spruce, they are lightly braced, bodies are often maple but other woods can be used. They are a heck of a lot of work to make.





Laminated guitars can kind of be broken into two smaller groups - hollow bodies like an ES-175 and semi hollow bodies like an ES-335. Both are intended to be plugged in, neither has a great acoustic sound but certainly they have some, especially the full hollow. Hollow bodied electric guitars typically have enough bracing to support the pickups and bridge


Semi hollows still have laminated tops (and backs and sides) but have a big hunk of some sort of wood inside to support the pickups and bridge





The carved archtop has the best acoustic sound, that is what it is designed for. If a pickup is installed it usually floats above the top to minimize impact on the acoustic sound. A good carved archtop will be expensive, really expensive.

The laminated hollow body is intended to look like a carved one but be considerably easier to make (the plates are made in a big hydraulic press). It will have a reasonable acoustic sound but nothing to compare with the carved one. It still has the characteristic sound that we associate with jazz, most of the time will have warm humbuckers or P90's. They can be mass produced and are usually not nearly as expensive as the archtop.

The semi hollow certainly can be used for jazz but it is kind of the cross over to solid bodies. It will have a very poor acoustic sound, its intended to be plugged in. They have traditionally been used for blues. Yes they can feed back at high volumes (which is why BB's Luciles don't have f-holes). Its a very versatile guitar that can play many genres, and there are some pretty affordable versions coming in to our markets.

There is one other guitar that might be considered in all of this, that is a carved top solid body, Les Paul, PRS, and so forth. They rarely have much acoustic voice at all, certainly are not optimized for that, and in my opinion are just another permutation of the solid body guitar.

Since I can post one more picture, here is my laminated spruce and maple hollow body on the left and my carved spruce and mahogany acoustic archtop on the right. Very different critters

 

[clayville]

Trying to understand the pros and cons of laminate versus carved for an archtop with a pickup.

Say there are two guitars, identical in every way, except one is laminate and the other carved. What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?

What exactly are we talking about here? Big jazz boxes... or smaller semi-hollows? Most of the above replies apply to the former, but not so much to the relative merits of, say, a Gibson ES-339 vs a Gibson CS-336...

 

[Masmus]

I have a 61 ES350t, same as a byrdland but instead of a carved spruce top it has a laminate maple. Both guitars are thin line hollow bodys and it does help to control the feedback not eliminate it.

 

[mandoloony]

And of course there's also the middle path - a solid, pressed archtop. Like the carved tops they're mainly seen in guitars designed to be played acoustically.

 

[telepraise]

I think the key point here is "with a pickup". If the pickup is a humbucker and the player is going for that classic muted jazz tone, the subtleties of a solid carved top will go unnoticed when amplified. Thus some laminated to archtops actually have the pickups mounted in holes cut through the top and pots mounted in holes in the top. Joe Pass did his most famous work on an ES-175.

Players who spend a lot of time playing their archtops acoustically appreciate the sensitivities of a solid top box.

 

[bottlenecker]

For acoustic guitars, a carved solid top will be louder and sound fuller. For electric archtops it's more complicated.

There are two categories of electric archtop that are relevant to this question, and 335/semihollow is not one of them.

1. Acoustic archtops that are meant to be played at an acoustic volume with the amplified sound blended in.

2. Fully electric guitars with one or more pickups mounted to the top, made to make a sound through an amp, with the acoustic sound being a byproduct.

Category 1 needs a carved top, because laminate tops don't make enough volume acoustically, and they usually have a floating pickup to not dampen the top.

Category 2 can go either way for me as a player. A carved or laminate top will create the sound of an archtop through the amp, because it creates the attack/decay envelope and so much of the timbre of an archtop at the string.The sound is different, but to me a carved top doesn't sound better just because it was a lot of work and costs a lot more. Some carved top electrics sound better than some laminate top electrics, but laminate tops make a great electric sound and reduce feedback a little. There are also non-carved pressed solid tops in the mix. Not laminate, not carved. They all sound different, and they can all sound really good.

Some of the laminate top acoustic archtops that were sold as cheap beginner instruments were definitely inferior acoustic instruments, but throw a floating archtop pickup on them and they make great sounding electrics.

 

[Telekat 100]

Thanks all. Very helpful.

In short, I’m looking for something to contrast with my Tele, which I do still like.

These days I’m playing mostly jazz or jazz-ish stuff. (Like Jim Hall’s business card said. “Won’t play loud. Can’t play fast.”)

Feedback control isn’t really a concern. I tend to play clean. Usually through a small tube amp but some acoustic presence to the sound is a plus and if I can muck about with it unplugged, that’s also a plus. Mainly play solo or duo. Mainly for my own enjoyment. So it doesn’t need to compete with other instruments.

Started down the rabbit hole considering something like the Heritage H-530 (akin to the Gibson 330) then that idea morphed into the Heritage H-575 (akin to the Gibson 175) but I’d prefer a single pickup. (The Heritage only comes in a two pickup version.) Also, lighter weight is a plus.

Which led me to something like Sadowsky and everything in that little corner of the guitar universe. My interest was piqued by the slightly smaller bodies. (I don't want a big ol' jazz box.)

And yes, if I could walk into this magical guitar shop that had examples of any and all options under consideration, that would be fab. But that's not happening and my unicorn wouldn't take me anyways.

And thanks for the education thus far. I feel smarter than I did yesterday.

 

[Freeman Keller]

An additional comment about construction - an archtop is going to have a solid spruce top and its going to be a very good piece of spruce. When you put all the effort into carving it (I know, a cnc can do it but most builders will at least add their own voice) you want the best wood you can get.

With a laminate it doesn't matter. You mostly loose whatever properties you were looking for in the wood and with an amplified guitar the top wood is largely out of the picture. The show face of the laminate can be chosen for appearance, the other plys are there for support. That means that hollow bodies usually have spruce veneer for the show face, semis often have flamed maple veneers.

When a pickup is added to an archtop it is usually floated from the end of the neck or the pick guard. That does two things, it keeps it from dampening top vibrations and it puts it in that neck sweet spot which seems to fit the jazz sound. Here is a friend's Andersen, he asked me to install a Kent Armstrong floating humbucker



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[Jared Purdy]

The problem is, there aren't two guitars, identical in every way....

Carved archtops came first, the Gibson L5 and all the wonderful Epis, Stromberg, D'Angelico, D/Aquisto and so forth. They are all acoustic guitars altho some have pickups added. They are designed and optimized for their acoustic sound and in most cases it is pretty unique - quick attack, short sustain, string to string separation - all those things that we think of in a good jazz guitar. Their tops are almost always carved out of a big wedge of spruce, they are lightly braced, bodies are often maple but other woods can be used. They are a heck of a lot of work to make.

View attachment 1228476View attachment 1228477

View attachment 1228485

Laminated guitars can kind of be broken into two smaller groups - hollow bodies like an ES-175 and semi hollow bodies like an ES-335. Both are intended to be plugged in, neither has a great acoustic sound but certainly they have some, especially the full hollow. Hollow bodied electric guitars typically have enough bracing to support the pickups and bridge
View attachment 1228478View attachment 1228479

Semi hollows still have laminated tops (and backs and sides) but have a big hunk of some sort of wood inside to support the pickups and bridge
View attachment 1228481

View attachment 1228483
View attachment 1228482

The carved archtop has the best acoustic sound, that is what it is designed for. If a pickup is installed it usually floats above the top to minimize impact on the acoustic sound. A good carved archtop will be expensive, really expensive.

The laminated hollow body is intended to look like a carved one but be considerably easier to make (the plates are made in a big hydraulic press). It will have a reasonable acoustic sound but nothing to compare with the carved one. It still has the characteristic sound that we associate with jazz, most of the time will have warm humbuckers or P90's. They can be mass produced and are usually not nearly as expensive as the archtop.

The semi hollow certainly can be used for jazz but it is kind of the cross over to solid bodies. It will have a very poor acoustic sound, its intended to be plugged in. They have traditionally been used for blues. Yes they can feed back at high volumes (which is why BB's Luciles don't have f-holes). Its a very versatile guitar that can play many genres, and there are some pretty affordable versions coming in to our markets.

There is one other guitar that might be considered in all of this, that is a carved top solid body, Les Paul, PRS, and so forth. They rarely have much acoustic voice at all, certainly are not optimized for that, and in my opinion are just another permutation of the solid body guitar.

Since I can post one more picture, here is my laminated spruce and maple hollow body on the left and my carved spruce and mahogany acoustic archtop on the right. Very different critters

View attachment 1228484

If I was in the market, you'd have my money!

 

[Telekat 100]

This is all very helpful. So let me ask this ancillary question.

I get that a carved archtop often has a floating pickup to allow the body to resonate. But something like the Heritage H-575 is carved maple, albeit with the pickups inset and not floating. Any reason they'd do that?

 

[Freeman Keller]

This is all very helpful. So let me ask this ancillary question.

I get that a carved archtop often has a floating pickup to allow the body to resonate. But something like the Heritage H-575 is carved maple, albeit with the pickups inset and not floating. Any reason they'd do that?

As I see it the H-575 is strictly an electric guitar, it might have an "acoustic voice" but it has not been optimized for that. It really doesn't fit in the "carved archtop" mold. I know Heritage is trying to emulate some of the classic Gibson designs, you would have to ask them why they made it this way. Maple is a stunning wood to look at but is rarely used for acoustic guitar tops/

ps - I'll add one more thought. Many amateur builders who want to make a guitar in the style of one of the laminated guitars - a 335 clone or 175 clone or whatever but doesn't want to go thru the trouble of making dished molds for the top and back and doing the vacuum bagging thing to laminate them have built guitars with carved one piece tops. It is moderately easy to carve an arched top plate by doing the depth profiles on a drill press or with a router. We have had a couple of builders at the Home Depot make this type of guitar and they can come out very nice.

With the advent of cnc milling the actual "carving" of the top becomes routine, removing most of the appeal of the laminated top. I have done both, as well as carved solid bodies (LP clones) - just a lot of different ways to make guitars. I like working with hand tools but if I was in any sort of production situation I'd sure look towards automation.

 

[Telekat 100]

As I see it the H-575 is strictly an electric guitar, it might have an "acoustic voice" but it has not been optimized for that. It really doesn't fit in the "carved archtop" mold. I know Heritage is trying to emulate some of the classic Gibson designs, you would have to ask them why they made it this way

Thanks. You've been helpful as well as a vast storehouse of knowledge. Much appreciated.