Lacquer where to buy ?

[mefgames]

Okay, so I'm seeing all these posts of members walking in to their local paint suppliers and buying lacquer. I was hoping to buy what I need locally, but I live in California. The local paint suppliers around here only carry aerosols in small quantities because the EPA has put the clamp on sales of the product. Who online has a quality lacquer at a reasonable price ? I'm going to need pigments as well. I know StewMac sells the pigment. Should I just bite the bullet and buy theirs to combine shipping on both products ? If so, which one ? I see they carry a water based lacquer made by the same company that offers the pigments, but it is a bit higher priced than the others. Any pros/cons on that ?Also, how far does a quart of lacquer go, 1 body 2 bodies ? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Mike

 

[Flynman]

I have used the Colortone waterbase pigments and lacquer from stewmac and they are excellent. Easy clean-up and low odor. 1 quart of the laqcuer can do 2-3 bodies easily. Pigments go a long way.Stewmac customer service is also great.

Keith R

 

[Shepherd]

Woodcraft has everything you need (link removed)
LMII also http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/Secondproducthead.asp?CategoryName=Finishes
You can also buy Minwax or Watco lacquer at hardware stores.

 

[ltdave32]

I use nitrocellulose lacquer from Cardinal finishes in Calif.

http://www.cardinalpaint.com/products/productcat.php?pcid=1

Follow the solvent-dry conventional finish link at the bottom of the page.

 

[parsaver]

I get clear nitro from SW...the LOVOC.

I get white nitro from TH&H Hardwoods in San Diego. They can order just about anything from Mohawk.

Tcp global in San Diego can mix up quarts of any auto color in acrylic laquer (even dupli-color I believe) and ship in california.

Sent from my DROIDX using TDPRI

 

[K-Line]

Grizzley offeres the Seagraves stuff as well as Stew-Mac.

 

[Ripthorn]

I picke up a gallon of target coatings Em-tech em6000 (the stuff that stewmac rebrands as colortone, as I understand) online and it was reasonably priced. I think that with the promo code of the month, it was $50 delivered and works quite well.

 

[adrianjordan]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but does anyone know of anywhere in the UK that sells Nitro Lacquer in anything other than aerosol form?

 

[donvito]

ReRanch guitar finishes has a good selection of lacquer guitar paint. Most is in spray cans. The auto parts stores in North Carolina sell pre-reduced lacquer in quart cans. There are a limited number of colors, along with clear. California can be difficult, with the EPA regulations.

 

[Silverface]

because the EPA has put the clamp on sales of the product.

OK, time for the LONG "California lacquer" epistle:

I've been involved off-and-on with the South Coast Air Quality Management District in their review of the 3 primary paint-related rules: 1113, Architectural Coatings (primarily buildings), Rule 1107 (Metal parts and products) and Rule 1136, Wood finishing products. All these rules govern emissions of VOC's (Volatile Organic Compounds - sometimes worded as "content") during specific types of coatings application and is broken down by product type.

The EPA only handles enforcement - they have a model rule but California (especially the L.A. Basin, San Francisco and San Diego) generally has tighter locally-administered rules. From top to bottom in order of precedence are Local, State (CARB) and EPA rules/models. The rule numbers I gave are for the SCAQMD only - each District has its own numbering system.

Rule 1136 link: (link removed) )

This rule is VERY complicated and applies to production shops (Fender and G&L plus cabinet and furniture manufacturers - many of whom moved coatings operations and then all manufacturing to Mexico; it's part of the reason for Fender's Ensenada plant) down to individual applicators.

The rule is so complicated most regular paint stores do not understand it - and most of the regional and local manufacturers with stores, if they make lacquer at all, generally have a separate sales division that handles it (usually the industrial division that calls on OEM accounts - i.e. product manufacturers). Their store people usually have no or very limited education in lacquers and don't stock them except in a few aerosols.

The disconnect between divisions is so bad the store people will generally say "we can't sell it because of VOC regulations" - but ask them which one and you'll get a deer-in-the-headlights look. They won't special order laquers either.

One critical part of the rule concerns spray equipment and "transfer efficiency", or the percentage of coating that actually stays on the piece. Generally 66% transfer efficiency is required, and it's mandated to use electrostatic, HVLP spray equipment (the equipment with the highest percentage of units that meet the transfer efficiency requirement) and brush/roller/dip methods. There are a few specific exceptions based on lab test results (expensive!) - some high-pressure units and a couple of air-assisted airless systems.

One very important note - legally, any unit providing pressure in excess of 10psi is NOT AN HVLP! This really screws everyone up, as Harbor Freight, Home Depot and many others sell gravity guns as "HVLP" units - which they can the way the law works.

So you can be sold something using the right terms but that has the wrong specs for legal application. And this is ANOTHER part of the rule none of the paint stores (and certainly not the Mensa-candidates at Home Depot, nor the people at Harbor Freight who aren't paint people) comprehend.

An interesting part of the law is that applicators consuming less than one gallon per day are generally exempt from the product VOC restrictions and transfer efficiency parts of the rule, but the way its been interpreted (due to some conflicting paragraphs) the reality is you can apply up to one gallon (total) of lacquers and/or other products that exceed the limits set forth in the rule, but true HVLP (<10 psi) is the only acceptable HVLP equipment (OTOH the >40 psi guns can be used on certain Architectural applications and shop metal finishing, subject to compliance with other parts of the law.

Chances are nobody is going to cite you for spraying with a 40-50 psi unit at home, but SCAQMD and EPA inspectors HAVE chanced upon people spraying furniture in a paint shop or garage with such equipment, and if they could not supply recordkeeping showing less that a gallon a day application there have been citations written. The only occurrences those of us in the industry are aware of relate directly to the spray equipment used...not the coating, since it's hard for them to prove you used more than a gallon/day - but they CAN prove you used otherwise non-compliant equipment.

My suggestion in SoCal is for newbies to stick with ReRanch materials - you can get them no problem, they're easy to use and you do not have to worry about Rule 1136(generally!). For more experienced applicators Cardinal, Sherwin Williams (ask a store to contact one of the industrial sales reps - I work with Eric Anderson, who may be hard to reach as he's buried in large projects...but if you can get him he'll either help or find someone for you), order Stewmac or Mohawk/Behlen's (same thing), or go to an auto paint store - several of them also sell industrial lacquer coatings, but using auto-grade bulk acrylic/nitro lacquer sure as heck isn't a bad thing. Many of them can also tint custom colors (I think D'Angelos and Fountain Valley Paint might be good sources). There are others locally - most are small blenders and I don't keep track as they tend to come and go.

But forget buying from big-boxes or local paint stores - they flat will not understand the rule and will tell you no. Also - SOME out-of-state lacquer manufacturers will not sell to anyone in California because they THINK it's illegal to do so. You can try explaining it to 'em - heck, fax or email them this post, I don't mind.

Hope that gives a little insight - the materials are out there, you just have to work at finding them.

(FWIW I don't always use lacquer - sometimes I'll buy a fairly new aerosol line at Aaron Brothers (Montana Gold - wild stuff!), use ReRanch materials - but mostly I tint my own color coats using Breakthrough Gloss Industrial Enamel followed by whatever clear gloss lacquer I have on hand (and I NEVER have Deft or Watco - both brush-grade and far too slow-dry for me. The last couple relic jobs I posted were Krylon primer, Breakthrough (tinted with artist's acrylics) - one was some old Guardsman lacquer I'm using up before it goes bad, the other Ace Hardware aerosol (I was in a hurry - and it worked great!)

There ya' go!

 

[Colt W. Knight]

Popular brands to search for

Sherwin Williams
Seagraves
Behlens
Mohawk
Cardinal

Fullerplast even carries Nitro lacquer, and they are in California
(link removed)

Check if you have a local Woodcraft, Sherwin Williams, or Rockler. They all carry lacquer in some form or another usually.

 

[ltdave32]

Silverface, how do you feel about Cardinal NCL (2000 series) as an instrument lacquer? I'll admit I have a special connection with it; my best friend has a casting shop where he sprays the product he makes with NCL. He's been buying Cardinal's NCL and thinner in 5 gallon drums for years. He's been my source for NCL since I started building guitars, and he supplies me with all I want since I've built him a few guitars (he's been most generous because of that )

But in your opinion, how does it rate as a product? I've had nothing but terrific results using it.

 

[ltdave32]

Fullerplast even carries Nitro lacquer, and they are in California
(link removed)

I just checked that page out. At $21.95 per gallon, that's the best deal on NCL I've ever seen!

 

[Colt W. Knight]

I just checked that page out. At $21.95 per gallon, that's the best deal on NCL I've ever seen!

The website hasn't been updated for a while, so it may or may not be the correct pricing. I contacted the company, and they are still in business. But I never got a price quote for small amounts of Nitro.

 

[Silverface]

Dave - it's good stuff. I've never heard of any problems and I believe some of the local boutique guys use it. In fact, you reminded me that I need to find a local source for it (or something!) since my Sherwin Williams rep flew the coop!

 

[ltdave32]

Dave - it's good stuff. I've never heard of any problems and I believe some of the local boutique guys use it. In fact, you reminded me that I need to find a local source for it (or something!) since my Sherwin Williams rep flew the coop!

I didn't see anything on the page regarding the formula, if it was nitro or acrylic, had plasticisers or hardeners added, anti-yellowing agents, etc.

If it turns out to be the real McCoy, that's a great deal.

 

[jamie cowan]

I use nitrocellulose lacquer from Cardinal finishes in Calif.

http://www.cardinalpaint.com/products/productcat.php?pcid=1

Follow the solvent-dry conventional finish link at the bottom of the page.

so I emailed for a price:

TEXT COPIED FROM MY INBOX:

Hello James,

The price for 1 gallon on the 2000 series lacquer nitro cellullose lacquer is $ 66.10. Bright colors and metallics are usually higher depending on the color. One gallon of the 1200-08 Lacquer Thinner is $ 29.20.

Leadtime is 3-4 days.

Oliver A. Carillo
Cardinal Industrial Finishes
1329 Potrero Avenue
South El Monte, CA 91733
(626) 444-9274 x118
(626) 444-0382 fax
oliverc@cardinalpaint.com