Jimmy Page with a B-bender

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by teleclarkster, Dec 26, 2005.

  1. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

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    Mark, add "In my opinion" to that statement and I'd have some respect for it. But do you have a copy of the DVD set with Royal Albert Hall and Madison Square Garden on it? If so, then I say you're flat wrong. If not, you might want to watch it and it'll change your view.
     
  2. Roli

    Roli Banned

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    Desert Rose easily could be a Beatles song.
     
  3. dhdfoster

    dhdfoster Tele-Holic

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    Interesting. It looks like Page fans rationalize their hero's actual abilities almost as much as Jerry Garcia and Carlos Santana fans.

    All in good fun.
     
  4. DlxNashvilleLuvr

    DlxNashvilleLuvr Tele-Holic

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    I had been commenting on Miles flubbing the first few notes on Kind of Blue, and how I saw Doc do a solo one night on the Tonight Show, and he knocked me on my ass! I couldn't believe this guy's claim to fame was wearing wacky suits for Johnny to make fun of, because that guy could BLOW! And so my friend said, "Miles Davis is more like Jimmy Page, and Doc Sevrinsen is more like Joe Satriani. But which one would you rather listen to?" And of course...I'm a Page man.

    But put on Led Zeppelin III with headphones and listen to "Since I've Been Loving You," or "Friends," or "Tangerine," and listen to the number of guitars you're hearing at once, the mix of the instruments, the use of panning. We don't gotta rationalize nothin'! That guy was/is a genius (with a prod from John Paul Jones, also a genius)!
     
  5. T Prior

    T Prior Poster Extraordinaire

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    the good thing about Music is..

    we can turn it off if we don't like it..

    Obvioulsy there are those here that believe and love ZEP and Page..thats fine by me..I was there when they first hit the scene..they were good..all of us KIDS were argueing over who's better, EC,JB or JP..Personally of the 3, JB has always been the one to INSPIRE me..still does..not Zep and Page....

    Page and Zep have never done it for me...

    Still don't..

    I read above where we are still arguing over WHO's better, I guess that will never change..I know who LOOKS better and has more MONEY though...

    Then I read where EJ has had less effect than Page and Zep..well that pretty much floors me...

    Personally when I listen to ZEP the only thing I hear that is really really good is John Bonham....original, different..

    I don't expect those who think EJ is not a talent and don't feel he is a world class Musician , as I do, to agree..

    But make no mistake..He is.....

    Try going on stage as a trio..as a Guitar player , playing Guitar songs..that you wrote, with several rigs setup for totally different tonalities..all happening at the same time....in perfect synch...

    All of us Guitar players have one thing in common..many times we HIDE behind other Musicians on the stage with us...we can jump in and out..over a 2 or 3 hour show..

    Try doing that when YOU are the show...with no where to hide...

    I , like a few here , can't figure out exactly what it is that Page has brought to the table..in a world class arena...sure there were some pretty good songs that I liked, a few moments pf playing that I liked, but in the overall 30 or 40 years...I can only think of a very few ZEP songs that stuck..

    If I have to be told what

    Can Page even do a show without Plant ? We have seen Plant try to do shows without Page, that didn't work...I suspect it would be the same in the other direction.
    Zep as a unit is pretty good..individually I think they are less than the whole...they need each other...

    If Zep is your favorite band and Page is your favorite player, cool..but that does not mean he IS THE MAN..it just means he's YOUR MAN..

    Compare and grade your players, but at the end of the day it's only important to the person making the comparison...

    just my opinion, which only is important to me...

    JP may be the best player on the planet..but he didn't rope me in....but I'm glad he hit the scene....
     
  6. Bones

    Bones Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Well, I'm new here so I'm not going to cut and paste anyone's quotes and personally comment on on others' opininions, I'll just offer mine.

    Because of "sloppy" players like Jimmy Page and Joe Perry, I got interested in guitar, because of "lame" songs like Hot Dog or the Willie DIxon stuff they copped, I discovered guys like Scotty Moore, Bob Wills and His Texas Playboys and all the blues greats from Muddy to the Iceman to Robert Johnson and Slim Harpo. That to me is way more important than flubbed notes, being off tempo or off key singing.

    I don't need a "clinic" when I'm listening to music, I just want to be touched by it and have a little fun.

    Thanks for posting the clip, I remember exactly what my life was like when that album came out, it's a bookmark in the soundtrack to my life.
     
  7. Tim Bowen

    Tim Bowen Poster Extraordinaire

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    As these things go, the following is simply my opinion:

    And that is that John Paul Jones is, for my money, simply the greatest bassist that the realm of rock 'n' roll has ever produced, and is among its most intelligent arrangers and most gifted multi-instrumentalists.

    Along the same lines, I feel that Led Zeppelin, amidst all its supposed or real shortcomings, offered the most impactual rhythm section that heavy rock 'n' roll has ever yielded. While most guys my age were listening to Cream, JH Experience, and The Who, I was listening to Sly Stone, James Brown, Rare Earth, and the Jackson Five, and later, Graham Central Station, The Band, Humble Pie, David Bowie, Pariament Funkadelic, and all sorts of stuff.

    Rhythm sections such as that of The Cream simply made my head hurt, and made me feel confused; my take on that type of "groove" was/is sort of a "where's Waldo" thing. Led Zeppelin was the best rhythm section in heavy rock, in my opinion, quite simply because they were funkier, and they grooved harder, than anybody else within the genre. Hypothetically speaking, I could imagine Bonham and Jones "making" Al Green sound great, whereas I could not imagine same of, say, Entwistle and Moon (who were still cool).

    I have, and you're right, it's quite intimidating, to say the least. I did a progressive rock power tro thing for a couple of years. No covers, all original compositions, slew of gigs in a variety of venues. Very challenging stuff to play. I had a change of heart after realizing that I was a part of better music, in working with folks whose life's work it was to write really good songs. I've since come to realize that what I do best is to play a bit, sing backgrounds, and arrange (the true love of my life).

    I get what you're saying, but let me be among the first to ask - do you feel that the principal oboe player in a symphony orchestra is somehow "hiding" behind other musicians? I think not!

    I currently do acoustic duo and trio work, and as for full band stuff, I work with a pop rock quartet, as well as a couple of six piece outfits (one of which occasionally utilizes a seventh member). In all honesty, I find all of it to be difficult and challenging. Obviously, one needs to cover more ground and perhaps push more air forward with a duo or quartet. On the other hand, I find the challenges of working with a larger ensemble to be equally unique: if anyone involved does not understand dynamics, carefully chosen parts, and texture, it is, in a word, a "cluster f**k". Speaking strictly for myself, the most difficult live scenario that I've encountered is that of the pop rock format - that which entails nailing parts, convincingly playing concise eight bar solos, and singing backing vocals a third or fifth above the lead, as somewhat true to pitch. I've always found the more improvisational format to be more "relaxing".

    Not much, really. He has crafted arguably the most visceral riffs that rock 'n' roll has ever known. The "obscure" cuts (such as "The Rover" and "Hots on for Nowhere") rock harder than anything I hear on the airwaves. As an acoustic stylist, his Bert Jansch (among others)-inspired work totally turned the world of rock 'n' roll around (although such influence was likely ill-interpreted by many "Zep-influenced" acts, subsequently). As a multi-track recordist, he was to rock 'n' roll what Les Paul was to early pop jazz. As a thinker/producer/arranger, he was the Tom Dowd/Gil Evans/George Martin of his field. As a player, I've still not heard anyone better speak to "minor blues" than has Jimmy Page, in realizing "Since I've Been Loving You". Son House and Hubert Sumlin and Howlin' Wolf and Charlie Patton and Jeff Beck can't touch that work, to my ear. He also had a tendency to wear flare-legged, satin, dragon pants, and a proclivity toward slugging Jack Daniels at Madison Square Garden. The accoutrement of the rowdy and ill-informed, I suppose. Other than that, I really can't think of anything.

    I have no idea... all I know is that I won't do a "solo" gig, as I simply lack the balls. Duo is the minimum for me. I never liked Lennon's or McCartney's individual efforts as much as I did their combined efforts, nor did I dig Elton John's work nearly so much as when he was affiliated in the early years with Bernie Taupin. I've always dug Bob Dylan's work, but I liked him best when he associated with The Band. This is nothing new, it's about the chemistry that can sometimes occur when different human beings are involved with pursuit of a similar goal.

    Not sure that anyone here was, or is, making such a claim; most folks here have a plethora of interests, musical and otherwise. But yeah, if you want to eliminate the shades of grey, that's pretty much the rub.
     
  8. T Prior

    T Prior Poster Extraordinaire

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    well I'm not really

    dissing JP..I think he is a fine player..although some of my comments above may appear to diss him..

    but for me he is not one I have ever turned to personally for regular inspiration or to listen to on regular rotation.

    We can all bring up some of our favorite players and state some things that they have played which nobody else can touch..Page is no exception...

    I guess when I did listen a bit more to ZEP and Page I was quite a bit younger ( probably 25 years ) and my own tastes had not really matured into a more focused direction.

    I think this quote from Tim above...

    'I've always found the more improvisational format to be more "relaxing"

    is fascinating as it really does it the nail on the head...

    As I stated at the end of my words..
    I'm really glad JP arrived on the scene..that still stands..

    I'm only one player with tastes that have become more refined and matured thru the years...but theres a few million more out there that hear things and see things totally different than me.Thank God for that..

    I guess at the end of the day trying to compare and discuss EJ with JP is really not practical..probably not even possible.....

    oh..and when I was the Guitar part of a trio for about 5 years, that was a real friggin workout...

    Today, I sit behind a Double Ten Pedal Steel as part of a very hi energy 6 piece Country Band..I can hide a whole lot..except when it's my turn to play the solos..then I better keep the bar straight...cuz' when you are off pitch or out of tune on a Steel there ain't nowhere to hide...

    oh and I almost forgot, the Oboe player..

    I see that as a totally different deal..the Oboe player is part of the WHOLE..without the Oboe player the piece is minus something..No he is not hiding..my comment was that many times a Guitar player can slip back into the background , an Oboe player, or rather, every member of an Orchestra MUST play there parts at all times..the total of the performance depends on it.
     
  9. TJNY

    TJNY Friend of Leo's

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    All I can say is most of you who have responded to this post must be amazing players. I'm only a novice at this guitar stuff so my opinion probably isn't worth much to the group, but the way players(and well established ones at that!) get picked apart around here for whatever is just plain funny. I wish I had 1/16 of the talent that these guys have. I stand on no moutain top above anyone else and try my best not to pass judgement on anyone but myself. But that's me.........
    Carry on!!!!!! :rolleyes:
     
  10. T Prior

    T Prior Poster Extraordinaire

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    hey TJNY..

    you do not have to be an accomplished musician to have an opinion of the music you like to hear...

    I've been on the bandstands for 40 years but that does not make me any better than any one else..actually the kid I work with on the gigs now has been playing about 5 years...with the music we are playing he can whoop my butt...bigtime...
     
  11. TJNY

    TJNY Friend of Leo's

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    I understand that Tprior

    and I am a fool to expect people to not voice their opinions. Hell, I do it enough in my personal life. I'd rather see a lesson or two posted on how they accomplish what they do so I can learn from it rather than why a person dislikes them.
    It's always comes down to personal taste. So, like I said, carry on. I just felt like venting!! :lol:
     
  12. trag-o-caster

    trag-o-caster R.I.P.

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    "Personal Tastes" - Yup, that's the ticket!

    That's what validates a Nirvana fans opinion when they say that Kirt Cobain was WAYYYYYY better guitarist than Joe Pass, or fill in the blank. It don't make sense to us, yet it makes PERFECT sense to the Nirvana fan. In his, or her mind - they are correct. And to make matters worse is that the Nirvana fan can ALWAYS find many other Nirvana fans to back up that opinion, making it seem even MORE correct.

    I really just wanted to drop by and congratulate everyone for keeping this absolutely juvenile discussion alive. This is like a scene right out of my junior high school days (daze).

    I once got thrown out of class because someone leaned over and said that Jimmy Page was better than Jimi Hendrix, prompting a loud expletive out of me that was heard by the whole class and teacher.

    "LAMB - GO TO THE OFFICE - NOW!!!"

    In a weird twisted sort of way, Jimmy Page won that day. I definately lost.

    My question is: Which one of y'all is Paul gonna send to the office first??? :lol:
     
  13. trag-o-caster

    trag-o-caster R.I.P.

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    And the above would be my very first post of 2006!

    Ya see? I tackle the important issues first! :D
     
  14. Mark Davis

    Mark Davis Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Isnt it kinda redundant to post in my opinion?

    Its my opinion or I wouldnt be posting it! LOL

    I have seen the whole Zep DVD and still think Page is overrated and very sloppy.

    I like Led Zepplin and think they are a very important part of rock history.

    But there is no excuse for a pro player to make mistakes all night long.

    No one is wrong or right its just different peoples opinions.

    Here is the easiest way to explain this.

    Music is art. Some people might like a Rembrant a painting that looks real and everything is perfect. Other people might like a Picasso an abstract painting that might look sloppy.

    Am I wrong just because I might like a Rembrant and not like a Piacsso? Of course not its just a different taste in art.
     
  15. David Barnett

    David Barnett Doctor of Teleocity

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    I'm a fan, a huge fan, but I agree that there's no excuse for the quality of live performance that Jimmy Page put out in the last half of the 1970s, it was an embarrassment. Self-abuse may be the reason, but it's not an excuse. Led Zep's version of the excessive rock star lifestyle, from stories that I've read, is disgusting. In many ways they were four very reprehensible human beings. "Do what thou wilt" indeed.

    Despite all that, they made some fine records.

    Has anyone here read Bill Graham's book? It's a fascinating read, and there's a whole chapter about Led Zep.
     
  16. sticko

    sticko Tele-Meister

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    It's nice to know, in these uncertain and everchanging times, that you can still count on things like the "Page sucks vs Page rules" debate to always be there.

    For me, when Page is bad, he doesn't mess around. He gets full on, vomit inducing, saw your own foot off with a dull butter knife and beat your father over the head with it, stinkin' TERRIBLE!!! And you know what? I love him for that reason. He takes(or I guess took, since he doesn't gig too much these days) more chances than his peers. And because he goes out on such a limb, on such a regular basis, he often comes up with the most inspired playing one can hear in the rock context. Certainly more interesting. Personally, I LOVE his playing on TSRTS. The title track, "Rain Song" "No Quater" I prefer the live versions of ALL of these songs. And rest assured, I have the bootlegs. He played all of that stuff, friends. So, I say his playing kicked mucho booty in '73. However, I do agree that from '77 on, his live playing painted the toilet more often than not.
    But I love Jimmy Page's playing. Probably always will, weather it's hip or not to do so.
     
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