Is this orange peel?

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by ppg677, Jul 18, 2019.

  1. ppg677

    ppg677 Tele-Meister

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    After at least a dozen coats of Behrens Instrument Lacquer.

    I wet sanded with 800, 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000. I guess I was too chicken for 400/600.

    Then buffed with Meguir's Ultimate Compound.

    It has a shine. Looks nice. I think I'm happy with it. But I wonder if that is orange peel or just the grain of the wood coming through a bit?

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    Macrogats and VWAmTele like this.
  2. pepperfox

    pepperfox TDPRI Member

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    Looks like a combo of orange peal and where the pores in the wood didn't fully fill with grain filler (on the back) and stain (on the top). The top appears to be maple, which you wouldn't grain fill. The back looks like walnut, which you could/should have grain filled IF you wanted a mirror finish.

    You could accomplish a mirror finish on the top with a few more coats of clear, followed by sanding and buffing.
     
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  3. 1bad914

    1bad914 Tele-Holic

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    Did you use grain filler? Looks like grain to me.
     
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  4. EsquireOK

    EsquireOK Friend of Leo's

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    It's really hard to tell conclusively from the pix. But I can tell that you didn't use a grain filler, and that accounts for a lot of what I'm seeing that looks "a bit off."
     
  5. ppg677

    ppg677 Tele-Meister

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    I did grain fill the walnut back, but I clearly didn't use enough. Oh well I can live with it. I tried using thick CA glue as a filler.

    The top is indeed maple which was not grain filled.
     
  6. schmee

    schmee Poster Extraordinaire

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    Grain if you ask me. It does look a bit like orange peel but seems to be just pretty swirly grain. You must have put thin coats on.
     
  7. drmmrr55

    drmmrr55 Tele-Holic

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    Looks like it needed a good sanding sealer before finishing, and it "looks", (looks CAN be deceiving), like there IS some orange peel. But with a good coat of sanding sealer, and sanding, the wood grain shouldn't show through the clearcoat, and it's obvious that the wood grain is showing through the clearcoat very well.

    Regardless, that's one badass looking guitar!
     
  8. Old duck

    Old duck Tele-Meister

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    Last time I clear finished a guitar without filling the grain really well, it took about 18 coats of clear nitro lacquer to get it to the point that I could sand and polish with no grain showing through. Then, I had to start with 400 grit to get it level.
     
  9. ppg677

    ppg677 Tele-Meister

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    Ok...well maybe ill just keep going with more coats of nitro...

    I think drmmrr55 is also right. The maple grain on the top is showing through the clear. I did use Behlens vinyl sealer though before the lacquer.
     
  10. Old duck

    Old duck Tele-Meister

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    When you start level sanding it, look at it across the light and work until the "lines" caused by the grain pores are gone. Keep the surface really wet with water and wipe off the muck before it completely dries. The finer grades of paper don't really remove much material.
     
  11. Drak

    Drak Tele-Holic

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    No orange peel at all.
    That's the way wood looks if it wasn't filled until you begin to build coats and level sand back a few times.
    Perfectly normal, all you're seeing is the actual texture of the wood amplified by the finish on top of it.
    Proceed ahead!
     
  12. Ronkirn

    Ronkirn Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    No that's not orange peal. that''s where the lacquer shrunk as it dried over a period of time... its as common as 'skeeters on a warm Florida night..

    r
     
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  13. Steve 78

    Steve 78 Friend of Leo's

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    That's a beautiful looking finish!
     
  14. ppg677

    ppg677 Tele-Meister

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    As in proceed with more nitro coats or proceed with installing hardware?! :)
     
  15. ppg677

    ppg677 Tele-Meister

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    Back is all messed up now. The polish turned white in the walnut grain. Any chance I can sand back the lacquer still, try a different grain fill and then re-lacquer? Or do I need to sand back to bare wood?
     
  16. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Those are two separate problems.

    But both are easily identified BEFORE clear is applied, so my question is - respectfully - why did you keep going when the grain was still open? I would have advised 1) NOT using CA glue as a filler - but even if you do, it may take more than one application to get a smooth surface...and you do not continue until it IS smooth; 2) I recommend real grain filler/epaste wood fillers like Mohawk and Timbermate.

    But did you use any sanding sealer? Honestly, I see these issues:

    1. grain that is not filled

    2. grain that appears unsealed, with inconsistent color/blotchiness

    3. And yes - there IS orange peel.

    Need pictures to understand what you are describing.

    How did you get the blue color? The numbers of coats you are describing and the sanding is very confusing/a bit.....chaotic. :eek:

    Did you practice applying the full system on scrap before starting on the guitar? We need to know what the FULL system you applied is - in order and number of coats/product brand names. IT seems all hit of miss right now.

    A few points:

    1. If lacquer is applied correctly you don't have to sand AT ALL - or possibly starting with 1500 at worst. Experienced finishers go straight to buffing, but some sanding is no big deal.. However, if you need 800...or 600 or worse - it's just not normal. It's fixing a problem (or several problems). If you apply each coat by making 3 VERY light passes - where a single coat doesn't cover or flow out completely until the 5th or 6th clear coat (which can be applied a BIT heavier as a flow coat). Most who practice this on scrap end up with smooth, consistent finishes.. But you really do have to learn first if you want a slick looking finish.

    2. The FIRST thing applied is sanding sealer, regardless of anything else. If you are using dye or stain the sanding sealer allows you to use a solvent-dampened cloth to "pull" color out of areas that are starting to go too dark. Without it the color will be blotchy AND you'll never get nice, glossy surface - with or without grain filler.

    3. Open grain NEEDS grain filler if you want a smooth finish. It's applied after the sanding sealer and dye (or stain) and can be tinted to make the grain "pop". It's a fast process and can't be done well without practice. And it sometimes takes 2-3 applications, progressively thinner, to completely fill the grain. And after it's sanded smooth you apply ANOTHER coat of sanding sealer and sand - it gets thee last little microscopic spots.

    4. Next come toner or color coats, if applicable. light coats of 3 VERY light passes each, and the final one should be *reasonably* smooth - because the clear coats will provide final smoothing.

    4. THEN you start on clear coats - very light using 3 passes per coat. And since what you are working on is ALREADY fairly smooth the 5th or 6th coat of clear should melt in and flow out almost like glass. Lacquer melts into itself, so the clear and toners or colors (if applicable) end up one single coat of lacquer - nice and smooth and ready for the buffer (3 different compounds, each with a clean cloth wheel) Maybe one or two small runs need to be fixed, or you need to smooth it a bit with 1500 or 2000. But if it's not at that point - something is wrong.

    That's a VEY brief overview of a typical lacquer system. And nothing can be left out except color or toner coats, and filler if it's a closed-grain wood.

    And practice, practice, practice.

    Good luck!
     
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  17. ppg677

    ppg677 Tele-Meister

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    Yes I learned my lesson on grain fill.

    I'm going to sand back the walnut back and redo it. With open grain,.there is white wax/polish stuck in there that won't come out.
     
  18. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Please post pictures. Sanding may not be a good removal method - you could press the polishes and wax into the grain, making it impossible to coat without adhesion problems. It may need chemical stripping. Pictures would really help.
     
  19. ppg677

    ppg677 Tele-Meister

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    Already tried Naptha and mineral spirits. I was thinking about trying a toothbrush too.

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  20. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Naphtha and mineral spirits are essentially identical when it comes to "cutting strength". Naphtha is just preferred on guitar parts because i doesn't damage finishes neither does mineral spirits) but it leaves NO contaminants behind.

    I'd try naphtha with a toothbrush - and probably end up using wire brushes. If anything is left, then you should try testing it with some drops of water to see if it 1)beads up, or 2) just sits on the surface, or 3) soaks through it. #1 and 2 mean it's wax, silicone or silane and HAS to be removed; #3 means it's not one of those, but could be virtually anything else.

    If you end up with #3 I'd go with the system I recommended from the start - sanding sealer, dye of stain, and tinted grain filler - which should cover any remaining residue AND get you to where you wanted to be in the first place.

    But that grain is very open and needs grain filler/paste wood filler, tinted to the deep color you want. I prefer Mohawk - a first coat thinned about 40% and scraped (with a flexible rubber or plastic blade)about 670 degrees across the grain (not straight across); then sanded, and a second application thinned about 60% & scraped at 45 degrees in the *opposite* direction. IF it's still open at all, do another thinned 75% or so and scraped 90 degrees to the grain. THAT should do it, and you can apply a coat of lacquer sanding sealer as a finishing "smoothing" touch that the lacquer can melt into.

    But practice first. But some junk ash at Rockler or a hardwood dealer and make sure you understand the speed at which you have to work (VERY FAST!) and that you get a complete fill, preferably in 3 applications maximum (I rarely use more than 2) - and that you have tinted the filler properly!

    THEN you should be good to go with toners (if applicable) and clear coats. Keep them THIN. Better to build a lot of thin coats than a few thick coats, which end up trapping solvents, blistering, bubbling etc etc! And DO NOT SAND BETWEEN LACQUER COATS except to touch up runs - and to sand sanding sealer, of course. Hopefully you won't sand at all - just buff at the end.

    Good luck!
     
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