Is it possible to change a pickups' tone via a 3 way mini toggle switch and no tone pot? (or some other way with no tone pot)

[toonskeez]

I am in the middle of a new guitar build (see: https://www.tdpri.com/threads/new-b...gle-coil-in-middle-position-opinions.1104191/)
Regarding that thread, I went with the Guitar Fetish over wound tele neck pup for my middle position pup.
Anyway, the pickup setup I have is: humbucker neck, single coil middle, humbucker bridge.
I have two volumes pots, two tone pots, one 5 way selector switch.
I want to use one of the vols for both the humbuckers and the other volume for the middle single coil.
I want to use one tone pot for neck humbucker and the other tone for bridge humbucker.
So there's no tone control left for middle pup.
I'm not one to use the middle pup in a 5 way switch scenario very often, so initially I thought of just not having any tone options for the middle pup,
but then I just had a thought: is it possible to use a 3 way toggle ON-ON-ON switch (maybe in conjunction with a capacitor) to somehow enable me to have 3 tonal options with the middle pup:
bypass capacitor entirely
use capacitor at ~70%
use capacitor at ~25%
Just typing that out makes me think it sounds daft, but I dunno, is there a way I can achieve some kind of tone control with the middle pup whilst not having it soldered to an actual tone pot?

 

[Boreas]

I think you could do it. Another option would be a varitone switch that is rigged with different electronics at each position. A Gibson thing.

 

[kiwi blue]

A pot is just a variable value resistor. You can use a fixed value resistor in the same place in the circuit. For example, a 500k resistor will sound the same as a 500k pot on full. A smaller value would be the same as turning down the pot a little. A much smaller value is the same as turning down the pot a lot more.

 

[Wound_Up]

A pot is just a variable value resistor. You can use a fixed value resistor in the same place in the circuit. For example, a 500k resistor will sound the same as a 500k pot on full. A smaller value would be the same as turning down the pot a little. A much smaller value is the same as turning down the pot a lot more.

That was my thought. Like the people who leave theirs on 10 could replace the pot with a fixed spec resistor and take the pot out completely. All you'd have to do is figure out where in the sweep of the tone pot that you like the sound best and measure the resistance at that point. Get a resistor to match or get as close to that number as possible and Bingo! No more tone pot to worry about.

 

[CalebAaron666]

Gretsch has been using tone switches in their best models since 1958.
I have tone switches in both my 6120 and my White Falcon.

Switch in the up position, the tone is rolled almost all the way off.
Switch in the middle it’s bypassed completely.
Switch down, there’s about a 30% roll off.
It all depends on what caps are used.

 

[toonskeez]

Excellent, thanks guys. So, can I put a 3 way mini toggle ON-ON-ON switch immediately after the middle pickup (en route to wherever it is wired next) and solder 3 different value resistors to each of the 3 pairs of lugs on the switch to achieve this?
As it's single coil, I'm thinking 250k, 150k, 75k or something similar.
If it's this simple, then happy days.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Excellent, thanks guys. So, can I put a 3 way mini toggle ON-ON-ON switch immediately after the middle pickup (en route to wherever it is wired next) and solder 3 different value resistors to each of the 3 pairs of lugs on the switch to achieve this?
As it's single coil, I'm thinking 250k, 150k, 75k or something similar.
If it's this simple, then happy days.

The standard electric guitar tone circuit is a low pass filter. The value of the capacitor (along with the pickup impedance) determines the break frequency, the potentiometer selects how much of the high frequencies will be attenuated. You can have your switches select any combination of frequency and amount by just switching different values of capacitors and/or resistors to ground.

You can either calculate the transfer function for the filter (fairly classic text book circuit) or you can just fiddle around with a bunch of caps and resistors until you get it. I would be temped to bread board a pot and some alligator clips for changing the caps, when you find a combination you like measure the pot resistance and substitute a resistor.

ps - Mark French has a pretty good discussion of how this works in his book, I'm sure there are others.

 

[Peegoo]

Look here for some cool tone switch ideas.

Three Must-Try Guitar Wiring Mods

These DIY mods just may change the way you play.

www.premierguitar.com

 

[toonskeez]

So back to my previous question: what effect (if any) would inserting into the signal path of the middle pickup, a mini toggle 3 way switch with 3 different resistor values have on the tone of the middle pickup?
Like I said before, the middle pickup will only be going to a volume pot, not a tone pot. I'm just trying to figure out a way have 3 different tone settings for this pickup. I'm limited to using a mini toggle switch, as I don't have enough space for another potentiometer.

 

[Wound_Up]

So back to my previous question: what effect (if any) would inserting into the signal path of the middle pickup, a mini toggle 3 way switch with 3 different resistor values have on the tone of the middle pickup?
Like I said before, the middle pickup will only be going to a volume pot, not a tone pot. I'm just trying to figure out a way have 3 different tone settings for this pickup. I'm limited to using a mini toggle switch, as I don't have enough space for another potentiometer.

A toggle with 3 resistors to switch between would be like having 3 detents on the tone pot. It'd be like having "tone pot at 1, tone pot at 5, and tone pot at 9" or whatever spec resistors you went with. It wouldn't be any different than if an actual tone pot were connected and that tone pot only changed between 1, 5, or 9(or whatever numbers the resistors correspond with)

 

[eclecticsynergy]

You could also use on position as full open and two others with different caps, or one standard cap and two resistors as you've envisioned.

I'd recommend trimpots instead of resistors. That way you can tune each position to taste and then close it up - but you'd be able them redial it easily in the future if you ever want.

 

[toonskeez]

You could also use on position as full open and two others with different caps, or one standard cap and two resistors as you've envisioned.

I'd recommend trimpots instead of resistors. That way you can tune each position to taste and then close it up - but you'd be able them redial it easily in the future if you ever want.

As this approach is something I've never done, I just want to make sure I'm picturing this correctly.
When you say "or one standard cap and two resistors as you've envisioned" I thought that I should use resistors with the mini toggle switch and not capacitors. I thought that all capacitors sounded the same tone wise when soldered to a pot and the only difference is when the tone pot is at zero, in that a cap of lower value with retain more highs when tone pot at zero, so I thought using a cap on a mini toggle would have no effect. I (rightly or wrongly) thought that only a resistor on the mini toggle would effect the tone.
Again, this approach is all new to me, so forgive me if I'm completely wrong, but I'm just trying to understand this better.
Say for example, If I use two resistors (250k and 125k) soldered to the mini toggle switch and leave one pair of lugs free, would that setup afford me 3 tones: one as if it's seeing a 250k pot with no cap attached, one as if it's tone is roughly half turned down and one where the tone is wide open as if it's not seeing any tone pot?
I've searched yew chewb for videos using this approach, but can only find varitone vids etc.

 

[kiwi blue]

Perhaps the diagrams in this article might help

How a tone control works - StewMac

How a tone control works

www.stewmac.com

A tone control is a combination of a resistor and a cap, and in the diagrams you can see they are in series to ground. A tone pot lets you change the value of the resistance. That's the only difference from a normal resistor. So work out where a tone pot would be in your circuit (if you chose to use one) and place the switch with resistors there instead. The output of the switch then goes to the cap and from the cap to ground.

 

[toonskeez]

Perhaps the diagrams in this article might help

How a tone control works - StewMac

How a tone control works

www.stewmac.com

A tone control is a combination of a resistor and a cap, and in the diagrams you can see they are in series to ground. A tone pot lets you change the value of the resistance. That's the only difference from a normal resistor. So work out where a tone pot would be in your circuit (if you chose to use one) and place the switch with resistors there instead. The output of the switch then goes to the cap and from the cap to ground.

Thanks, I think I understand it better now. If I understand correctly, the cap ultimately is connected to ground and the cap allows most of the high frequencies pass to ground. A typical tone pot (which is a variable resistor) allows one to limit the amount of high frequencies that pass to ground; so if I just used a cap and no resistor, it would be as if the tone was turned all the way down.
So if I solder 3 resistors to my mini toggle switch, say 250k, 175k & 100k and then have a cap after that in series and then go to ground, I'll have 3 different tone selections: full tone, bit more than half and bit less than half.
If this is correct, my next question is: where exactly do I solder the cap? To the output lug of the mini toggle switch?
Also, how exactly do I solder the 3 resistors to the mini toggle switch? Or am I limited to using two resistors on the 3 way mini toggle as one lug is input and one is output?
I've wired up mini toggles before, but only for phase switching.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Thanks, I think I understand it better now. If I understand correctly, the cap ultimately is connected to ground and the cap allows most of the high frequencies pass to ground. A typical tone pot (which is a variable resistor) allows one to limit the amount of high frequencies that pass to ground; so if I just used a cap and no resistor, it would be as if the tone was turned all the way down.
So if I solder 3 resistors to my mini toggle switch, say 250k, 175k & 100k and then have a cap after that in series and then go to ground, I'll have 3 different tone selections: full tone, bit more than half and bit less than half.
If this is correct, my next question is: where exactly do I solder the cap? To the output lug of the mini toggle switch?
Also, how exactly do I solder the 3 resistors to the mini toggle switch? Or am I limited to using two resistors on the 3 way mini toggle as one lug is input and one is output?
I've wired up mini toggles before, but only for phase switching.

Yes, cap would connect between the output lug of your switch and ground.

Simplest way would use a center-off DPDT switch (on-off-on).
This has six lugs - three on the left, three on the right.

I'd connect a jumper from the source (in your case it'd be the hot lead which feeds the tip connection of the output jack) to the center lug on one side of your switch. (Could be either side; I've arbitrarily chosen the left.)

Connect the cap from the the center lug on the right side of the switch to ground anywhere it's convenient.

One resistor goes from the top left lug to the top right lug.
Another goes between the bottom left and bottom right.

With this arrangement, center position gives no rolloff, and in the up and down positions the amount of rolloff is determined by the value of the respective resistors or trimpots.

If you want a bit of rolloff all the time, you can jumper a smaller value resistor from the input lug of your switch (center left) to the output lug (center right). This will pass some signal to the cap all the time, including in the up and down positions as well as center.*

~

The thing about different value tone caps is, the value basically determines the shelf frequency of the treble you're rolling off. High value caps like 0.1uF give a very dark tone because they roll off at a lower frequency. Rolling off a lot with a cap this big takes away so much treble that there's very little clarity - gets muddy fast, especially with gain.

Smaller value caps like .033uF and .022uF move that shelf frequency up, rolling off treble that's higher and leaving more of your critical midrange intact for better definition.

Some have used values as small as 1nF (.001uF) with bright pickups - these roll off the high sparkle, and caps smaller than 3nF also effectively give midrange boost when you're rolling off a lot.

If I were wiring for a bit of rolloff all the time, I'd probably choose a fairly low value cap, maybe .015uF or .022uF. But it's entirely a matter of taste. Depends on how dark you like it. And things can vary according to the particular guitar and pickups - you can't be 100% sure until you hear it in your guitar.


*PS: If you wanted one position on the switch to be quite dark, you could dispense with one of the resistors and just use a jumper between either the upper or lower pair of lugs on the switch. This would be equivalent to a tone pot set at zero. The smaller the cap value, the more practical such an extreme rolloff is likely to be.

 

[toonskeez]

Yes, cap would connect between the output lug of your switch and ground.

Simplest way would use a center-off DPDT switch (on-off-on).
This has six lugs - three on the left, three on the right.

I'd connect a jumper from the source (in your case it'd be the hot lead which feeds the tip connection of the output jack) to the center lug on one side of your switch. (Could be either side; I've arbitrarily chosen the left.)

Connect the cap from the the center lug on the right side of the switch to ground anywhere it's convenient.

One resistor goes from the top left lug to the top right lug.
Another goes between the bottom left and bottom right.

With this arrangement, center position gives no rolloff, and in the up and down positions the amount of rolloff is determined by the value of the respective resistors or trimpots.

If you want a bit of rolloff all the time, you can jumper a smaller value resistor from the input lug of your switch (center left) to the output lug (center right). This will pass some signal to the cap all the time, including in the up and down positions as well as center.*

~

The thing about different value tone caps is, the value basically determines the shelf frequency of the treble you're rolling off. High value caps like 0.1uF give a very dark tone because they roll off at a lower frequency. Rolling off a lot with a cap this big takes away so much treble that there's very little clarity - gets muddy fast, especially with gain.

Smaller value caps like .033uF and .022uF move that shelf frequency up, rolling off treble that's higher and leaving more of your critical midrange intact for better definition.

Some have used values as small as 1nF (.001uF) with bright pickups - these roll off the high sparkle, and caps smaller than 3nF also effectively give midrange boost when you're rolling off a lot.

If I were wiring for a bit of rolloff all the time, I'd probably choose a fairly low value cap, maybe .015uF or .022uF. But it's entirely a matter of taste. Depends on how dark you like it. And things can vary according to the particular guitar and pickups - you can't be 100% sure until you hear it in your guitar.


*PS: If you wanted one position on the switch to be quite dark, you could dispense with one of the resistors and just use a jumper between either the upper or lower pair of lugs on the switch. This would be equivalent to a tone pot set at zero. The smaller the cap value, the more practical such an extreme rolloff is likely to be.

Thanks, very informative. From your advice, I'm leaning towards an on-off-on DPDT switch, as I like the idea of having one position be wide open and bright and essentially bypass any tone control, especially as I like pickup positions 2 and 4 to be bright sounding, similar to the typical strat pickup positions 2 & 4.
For the cap, I'll probably go with a .022uF. For the two resistors, probably a 200k and a 125k, for two slightly darker tones.
Just want to be sure about what you said here:
"connect a jumper from the source (in your case it'd be the hot lead which feeds the tip connection of the output jack) to the center lug on one side of your switch."
Do you mean solder a wire between the hot terminal of the output jack and the center left terminal of the toggle switch?
or solder a wire between the the source of the wire that goes to the hot terminal of the output jack and the center left terminal of the toggle switch?

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Just want to be sure about what you said here:
"connect a jumper from the source (in your case it'd be the hot lead which feeds the tip connection of the output jack) to the center lug on one side of your switch."
Do you mean solder a wire between the hot terminal of the output jack and the center left terminal of the toggle switch?
or solder a wire between the the source of the wire that goes to the hot terminal of the output jack and the center left terminal of the toggle switch?

Either one would work. Normally I'd tap off the output of the master volume, but you're running two volume pots.

So here it could be the tip connection on the jack OR the source which feeds signal to that.
Doesn't matter which end of that connection you tap from. Probably easier to take it from right there in the control cavity rather than the jack, but electrically it makes no difference.

The thing about a tone control is that it isn't really inline with the signal - just a side tap that siphons off some treble and shunts it to ground.

~

You can do some fun stuff on guitars with caps. Some actually run a cap inline to act as a bass cut; Yamaha's 'dry switch' circuit does this, and the Reverend treble/bass tone controls work on the same principle. I'm told Roy Buchanan's famous Tele "Nancy" had a 0.1uF cap inline all the time.

Others will put a small value cap right across hot and ground to simulate the capacitance of a long cable, or the subtle mellowing effect of Hendrix's coily cords... One company even sells a "variable capacitance" guitar cable so you can tweak the treble loss to a range of different values. Kind of a cool idea, though very pricey.

With the right combination of cap and pickups, this lowers resonant peaks enough to boost upper midrange response, and it'd be simple to wire to a switch. Have been tempted to try that on one of my Strat types.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

One of my Strat types has three mini switches in place of the center pot. I'm running a dual-concentric 250K tone pot with a center-off DPDT to select between two sets of caps, or tone bypass.

For this one I'll be wiring the caps between the switch and the pot lugs; it's less crowded that way.

So down position will be conventional, .022uF caps for both. Center position will be tone bypass. Up position will have a dark 0.1 cap for the neck/middle pickups and a very small .003uF for the bridge pickup, which is a humbucker.

With humbuckers a very small value cap can be a useful hack. In the upper range of its sweep it rolls off only the harsher highs and leaves the tone otherwise intact, and lower in the sweep it actually adds midrange, sort of a cocked-wah effect.

One of the other mini switches is to split the bridge hum, the other is the "Gilmour mod," making the neck pickup on in all positions of the blade switch.

 

[chris m.]

Check out the animation at this website for the Stellartone version of a Varitone. The cool thing here is that with a traditional variable resistor/fixed cap tone circuit, you cut out both highs and mids when you roll back the pot, so it sounds muddy, which is why so many people just leave their treble knobs on 10. However, by using carefully selected combinations of fixed caps/fixed resistors, you can shape the EQ cut so you only cut out the highs, or just the highs and the high-mids, etc. I.e., you can have much more precise control on the final EQ of your guitar output signal. So, for example, with a 3-way switch, you could have 1) full bypass straight from volume pot to output, 2) some highs cut; 3) more highs cut...but in all positions fully retaining the midrange. Or whatever you prefer.

If I were doing it I would breadboard the circuit and test it before settling on final cap/resistor values. Just run long leads from the control cavity to a breadboard and experiment with cap/resistor combinations until you get what you want. The Premier Guitar article has some good suggestions for values to try, and I'm sure you could find other suggestions with a little googling.