Is Demand outpacing supply for the Tone Master

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by burntfrijoles, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. artdecade

    artdecade Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    8,412
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2010
    Location:
    Boggo Road
    They sounded really nice in the demos that I have heard, but I haven't played one so I don't know how they feel. If Fender has the sag down, there is little reason I can think of to carry a tube Twin to a gig when you can get the tone without the weight. The sound is already there in my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
     
  2. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    11,404
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Location:
    near Arnold's
    The Pathfinder 15 does nothing even remotely like a Deluxe Reverb.

    One is a practice toy and the other (tube or digital) is a real gigging amp. In the case of the digital one, with extra, very useful features.

    I understand I'm tipping a sacred cow here. But claims that the Pathfinder 15 is even remotely giggable in any normal sense of the term, strikes me as just silly. Keep in mind, I've owned more than one. I think they are fine practice amps. If you are willing to have a severely directional, severely bandpass limited sound and play in maybe, I don't know, a solo electric setting, maybe you could get by.

    But not in any way that equates to a Deluxe Reverb, which can be a real, full frequency, full spread gig amp to medium stages unmic'd in an actual band, if you like some grit, and larger if you mic.

    And we all hear things differently. But a PR sounds quite different from a DR on a bandstand. And every Mesa I've tried that is based on the PR platform suffers from some of the same limitations. I suspect because the cab, while they cleverly cram a lot of things into the small space, is quite small.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
    Deathray, Chiogtr4x and telemnemonics like this.
  3. Chiogtr4x

    Chiogtr4x Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    7,549
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2007
    Location:
    Manassas Park, VA
    My pathfinder comment earlier was really just a joke about how I'm so glad I don't have to worry about this stuff because I do have a wonderful little amp

    and I do gig with it now for about 5 years including 40 dates in a play last year so do not say the Pathfinder is not a gigging amplifier it is indeed
     
    Rowdyman and black_doug like this.
  4. beyer160

    beyer160 Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,966
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2010
    Location:
    On Location
    Last year at work we bought two top-of-the-line, DSP controlled PA amplifiers for about $10k each as part of the initial run. This wasn't some Behringer crap that you buy at Guitar Center, this was a cutting edge, flagship product from one of the leaders in the pro audio field- a company that supplies big name touring rigs all over the world. We wound up sending back FOUR of them before we got two that worked right- there was a manufacturing defect that got by QC and failed early in use. This is why I never buy first generation anything.

    ...except that a Deluxe sounds different than a Princeton, and in my personal paradigm, better. Like the old Ampeg Geminis, there's something about a big cabinet that just sounds... bigger.

    This is my hangup with the whole thing. I get that people don't want to have to be computer programmers to play the stupid thing, but this is the equivalent of a supercomputer being sold as a Space Invaders console. I think the real issue is that if these are successful, they can sell a Princeton and a Tweed Bassman next year, then a 5E3 and a Champ, etc etc. Maybe in a few years they'll roll out the Tonemaster Super Deluxe that does them all.
     
  5. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    11,404
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Location:
    near Arnold's
    What is the nature/context of the gigs you do with the Pathfinder?

    I can't imagine standard pop/rock setting (acoustic drums, electric bass, 2 guitars or guitar + keys)?
     
    LuthRavin and Chiogtr4x like this.
  6. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    11,404
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Location:
    near Arnold's
    I see your cab comment and your comment on the "Super Deluxe" as inconsistent to a degree.

    If cab size and style matters (and I believe it does) then the Super Deluxe will not be 1:1. Part of the sound of the Tweed Deluxe is a relatively small cab to hold a 112, IMO. And part of the sound of a Super Reverb or Tweed Bassman is the cab size to accommodate 410. I haven't matched them up but my general recollection is the SR and TB cabs are not exactly the same size. Same with a Vibrolux Reverb and 210. Having one generic (likely DR sized?) cab to include all those models will not present the 1:1 experience people want.
     
  7. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

    Age:
    60
    Posts:
    22,484
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    WRT the deluxe sounding different from the Princeton I have a 70s Princeton that was gutted and made into a 30 or so watt 6L6 amp not at all BF style. It sounds pretty much huge and is not hampered but the smaller cab.
    WRT the boogie having a sort of narrow boxy sound according to some who don’t like them, I don’t think that’s all cab tone either but I don’t really like that dirt or clean sound as much as my gutted Princeton. I’m not really fighting for Fender to make a digital 100w Princeton either and have no problem with players wanting DRRI cosmetics and sound at half the weight for the same price.
    Just an interesting discussion as all narrowly targeted new products seem to end up being.
    Like the spirited discussions about the nutube where many fans were quite angry that we didn’t all agree they were tube amps. So what if we don’t all agree!
    And where are all those nutube fans now?
     
    beyer160 likes this.
  8. beyer160

    beyer160 Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,966
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2010
    Location:
    On Location
    Well, they'd need a 1x12 for the smaller amps and a 2x12 for the big 'uns, I think that'd cover the bases. I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to make a 12" sound like a 10" or an 8" with DSP. Sure you'd be modeling a Bassman without the 4x10, but you're not using tubes so it won't be exact no matter what, anyway.
     
  9. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

    Posts:
    11,478
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Location:
    Near BWI Int'l
    IDK if I'm a Nutube fan per se, but I got a used Vox MV50 Boutique a few months ago, and I love it, despite how anyone might want to classify it.
     
    telemnemonics likes this.
  10. Otis Fine

    Otis Fine Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    1,167
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2016
    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    Funny, I can't afford stamps right now, let alone a thousand dollar amp, but I've got my heart set on the Tone Master Twin. If they come out with a Tone Master Bassman I'll really have a dilemma on my hands.
     
    Danzego and pugnax like this.
  11. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

    Age:
    60
    Posts:
    22,484
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    I see the little nutube 50w heads used at GC for around $129 and am very tempted.
    At this point I have 25lb all tube heads and would need the weight savings of SS to be in line with those tiny heads that fit in a gig bag with the guitar and weigh almost nothing. Tubey tone might be a plus but I used Polytone amps in the 80s so I’m not skeered of a little SS with my muffs and delays!
     
  12. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

    Age:
    60
    Posts:
    22,484
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    I’m also interested in neo speakers but didn’t like the Tonkerlite I bought a few years ago. Hoping they get better and wonder if Fender did any amp voicing to match the Jensen neo or if it’s a great sounding speaker on its own.
     
  13. Chiogtr4x

    Chiogtr4x Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    7,549
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2007
    Location:
    Manassas Park, VA
    Only one guitar ( me) and small rooms.

    But PF ( when used in a R&R or swing blues context) is goosed with OD pedal ( always ON), and literally turns PF into Mr.Hyde for me, doubles amp volume and control dirt from guitar. Amazing

    In Country or Theater- just guitar >amp

    Apologies for derail
    As an ex Deluxe Reverb owner ( had to sell)
    I'd probably be fine, happy, with a Tone Master DR
    ( My 'BIG' amp is an old blonde BJ- looks really old and worn!, but going on 20 years gigs)
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  14. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    11,404
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Location:
    near Arnold's
    I don't know enough about whether you can model DSP to make 2x12 sound and work like 4x10 in the room. I kind of doubt it but would be entirely guessing.
     
  15. Les H

    Les H Tele-Holic

    Age:
    47
    Posts:
    625
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2018
    Location:
    Kansas
    So were the Dyna Touch, DSP, Stage or whatever other solid state amps they had over the years.
     
  16. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    8,767
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2003
    Location:
    Godzone
    The PR sounds different to the DR for other reasons than the cab and speaker size. There's actually significant differences in the preamp.

    You can buy amps today that model cabinets. 112, 212, 410, open, sealed, British speakers, American speakers. Not saying Fender won't bring out a Victorinox model, but it would seem self defeating when they can just sell you all more little and big amps.

    I would bet the DR and TR amps use the same 'preamp' and probably even power amp. With class D you're talking fantasy numbers - the two Alto cabs I use are 'rated' 1000 watts.

    The difference in rated power/volume could well be just the diff between 1 speaker and 2.

    Someone noted, halving impedance on some solid state amps doubles their rated power.

    If they're fibbing a little, who's ever going to know?

    They would have set these amps up so that the power section is not clipping (even with Class D that's a no-no).

    All the magic is in the preamp.

    The difference in person in sound could simply be in the Twin you have two speakers. In the Deluxe, you have one, which affects what you hear.

    And,you have to turn the Deluxe up 'louder' for the same perceived volume, which means the preamp and 'power section' DSP modelling will be like a Deluxe, closer to breakup than the Twin, which like a real one will be milder.

    That's how it works in the AB763 originals.
     
  17. El Marin

    El Marin Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,800
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Madrid, Spain, EU
    Absolutely. It has the looks

    Really, if you want a light amp and play clean, get a ZT. I will...
     
    Alter likes this.
  18. Sax-son

    Sax-son Tele-Holic

    Age:
    68
    Posts:
    552
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Location:
    Three Rivers, CA
    There may not be any bugs, but any new technology or manufacturing design, it is not thoroughly tested until its been slammed around or riding in the back of a vibrating truck bed for thousands of miles. If after a year of road testing, the full jury may be out. I assume most folks here are interested in these amps due to the weight factor so they can be lifting them in and out of the trunks of cars or vans. We will see how they hold up. Perhaps they will do well.
     
    beyer160, pugnax and cyclopean like this.
  19. Sax-son

    Sax-son Tele-Holic

    Age:
    68
    Posts:
    552
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Location:
    Three Rivers, CA
    I think you missed my point. I don't advocate one type of amp over another. That is very personal choice for the player and their approach to tone and style. I have solid state amps in my quiver and are quite happy with them.

    The subject of the Fender Deluxe and Twin Reverb amps are special in my opinion as they have their own distinct clarity. I believe this is due to the "breathiness" characteristics that tubes provide. If by chance Fender has convinced players that they have captured this by means of modeling, then by all means, go for it. Most folks won't argue with success. I just feel it is a little to soon to tell and if weight is the only concern, then you probably shouldn't be hauling around a tube amp in the first place.
     
  20. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    11,404
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Location:
    near Arnold's
    That's a pure straw man. You posit people only want these because of weight. And continue to so so in the face of multiple people noting other benefits. No skin off my back. Like what you like. But why go the extra step to mis-characterize what others like?
     
    tidalcast likes this.
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.