Is Demand outpacing supply for the Tone Master

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by burntfrijoles, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. bluescube

    bluescube Friend of Leo's

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    22W = Deluxe
    12W = Princeton
    5W = Champ

    Funny how the attenuater lines up like that

    and not one of the 15 GC's within 200 miles of me has a Tonemaster in stock.
     
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  2. Informal

    Informal Tele-Afflicted

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    My GC had at least 5 TM's in stock last week... Forgot exactly which ones.

    None of them had reserved signs on them.
     
  3. backporchmusic

    backporchmusic Friend of Leo's

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    This one seems to be in stock most places. Doesn't even need attenuation. Also won't break your back like the whopping 23 pound one.

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. pugnax

    pugnax Tele-Meister

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    The entire point of these things is that they look, feel, and behave like their tube counterparts. To that end, the dial is called "Output Power" and has the delineations in terms of the commonly understood loudness of different tube amp wattages. It isn't anything like a master volume - it is much more like an attenuator. But calling it an attenuator would be completely incorrect, and Fender didn't do that.

    It's somewhat fun watching people completely misunderstand these amps.

    And as far as planned obsolescence is concerned, I can't imagine this somehow not working in the future. It's not like there's some mandatory OS update with higher CPU requirements or anything that the hardware can't handle. And if for whatever reason it were to die (although it's difficult to imagine that) I'm a Mojotone Twin Small Parts Kit ($277) and a reverb tank (pulled from a dead Pro 185) away from a handwired Twin.

    Bottom line is that these things either speak to you or they don't. For me, personally, having an amp that I can record silently with absolutely killer IRs (although I do sort of wish you could send both at once with a blend) but can also overpower a drum kit if I need to, where I don't end up wasting an embarrassing amount of time tracking down some mysterious hum because the wrong lamp is plugged in across the room, and is a handsome physical artifact to boot, is just a no-brainer. Best amp purchase I've ever made.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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  5. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    You seem really spun up about this.

    My understanding is that BF/SF Fenders are basically all power stage (including phase inverter and speaker) distortion. Why wouldn't you call it power scaling if you are giving the breakup level that you typically get by cranking a DR to 7, but at a volume level more akin to a 12w, 5w or 1w amp? And why in the world is it offensive what they call it?

    It is a feature that performs a function and performs it well. To be honest I never looked at what it was labeled and never cared. I turn my amp up to 7 or 8. Then I click back the attenuator until the output level is right for the situation. Works brilliantly. Sound and feel is basically unchanged until you get down below 1w. And at that point it remains really good. I'm guessing the sub-1w differences are related to how hard the speaker is(n't) working at that point, and how my ears hear quiter sounds.
     
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  6. bftfender

    bftfender Poster Extraordinaire

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    i found the solution & it is awesome..Pro Reverb..a lil tweak on Normal side to break sooner & left trem stock & used Weber f150's..the amp hits right at kick level for live use. Its a clean amp like twin or a mean amp with a Rat on normal side...click on & off..the amp has surprised some. It;s like a jtm45 & twin all in 1
     
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  7. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Friend of Leo's

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    Geez. Here we go again. It's apparently not a MV. But it's not an attenuator, either? As far as I'm concerned, it's a MV disguised as an attenuator. I can't think of any other way to conceptualize it. At least until Fender gives up a schem, or explains in non-marketing terms what it actually does.

    It changes the output level. But it does not attenuate. Is the output section actually being overdriven? Or is clipping modeled in the DSP? There is only one volume knob on a Twin and DR. In conjunction with the scaling, the volume knob acts similar to a pre-amp volume. I just can't see it any other way. What am I missing?

    I use early SF master volumes as a comparison. They were not meant to get tons of distortion at lower levels. They were meant to make pre-amp signal hotter, but not necessarily highly distorted, and without having to crank the amp all the way up to get there. The TMs are obviously not tube. But the function in my mind would be similar. Master Volume in the case of a TM is not necessarily about making the rock into a rock machine. It's about increasing input levels while keeping output levels more room appropriate.

    But again, this depends on where clipping is occurring in a TM. If the output is actually overdriving (which SS can do), then it would be IMO power scaling and/or attenuating. If it's in the DSP only, then output levels have NOTHING to do with tone changes. Only volume. That would make the scaling more of a master volume than anything else.
     
  8. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Two things I guess:

    I work on things and like to know how things work.
    Controls on my gear generally identify the function of the control, so when I work the gear I know what I'm working.
    Changing control names from what the control does to what the designer thinks the customer will understand better than the truth is annoying to me and makes me less inclined to buy the product where the designer mislabels user controls.

    The other thing is I generally try to be honest as I go about my affairs.
    Sometimes I might think "the person I'm addressing isn't smart enough to understand the truth so maybe I should make something up they can grasp more easily".
    I consider that disrespectful, and will at least offer the info in case they actually want and "can handle" the truth.

    By now we all know that modelers do the sound crafting in the computer.
    We all know that (lets say) output level (since MV is associated with distortion amps) changes the volume of whatever our other chosen settings are.
    There really in no need to label a computer function as if it was a tube amp function.

    If we are used to a DR breaking up just right at a given volume setting, we can just set the tone master "volume" knob to that setting and turn down the output level knob.
    The power scaling knob is not changing or scaling the power section.
    Why suggest that it is?

    Because the internet is 80% misinformation already so why bother with straight talk?

    I guess the crux is the pushing of more and more misinformation.
    I'm not a customer for these amps so I'm not actually spun up about it.
    But again, saying what I'm thinking comes off as negative in a gear talk world full of gear superlatives and gear hate.
     
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  9. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Oh OK, so the actual amp has a knob called "output power", but users also call it power scaling?

    I'm interested in correct language when trying to communicate, and also note that PTP is confusingly used in place of turret board quite frequently.
    Then SS and modeling get mixed up.
    Thanks for the clarification!

    One thing I wonder about is the specs describing the 100w power section of the DR as "packs SPL's comparable to the 22-watt tube classic".
    Does this mean that the amp has a 100w class D power amp but it is only run at a max of 22 watts to avoid SS distortion?
    Or does this play into the debate over tube watts vs SS watts?

    We pretty much know that like tube power amps, SS power amps are rated at usable clean output, or at clipping/ @1%thd.
    There are several rated output levels including 1% thd, 10% thd, 4 ohms and 8 ohms.

    Is it as "loud" as a 100w Marshall or 100w Twin?

    Maybe only old curmudgeons still care about the meaning of words, descriptions, specs and controls?

    And maybe only old curmudgeons notice last years great thing isn't next years great thing?

    I think these are fair questions in a thread asking why these are sold out, gi=ven that this is basically a curmudgeon oriented amp built with already existing power section and processor parts but set up with a curmudgeon style interface.
    Enough of us have already stated online that we don't want to operate a computer interface with our guitar amps, and this is the answer that targets the curmudgeons who would use modelers basically if they were dumbed down.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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  10. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    It's as loud as the average 22w BF Deluxe Reverb with a Jensen C12k. I'm guessing the modules are sold in "100w" increments. Maybe they don't need all 100w to accomplish producing the same spL as a 22w BFDR with that speaker?

    You seem really negative about these amps for some reason. I don't want a computer on stage. Or to deal with menus and multiple parameters if I need to change something. Does that make me a curmudgeon? Ok?

    I like the amp because it sound and plays like an amalgamation of the best DRs (vintage and reissue) I've owned and played over the years, minus the downsides (noise, tube issues, too loud to get to the sweet spot, etc.).

    And it is scalable to the venue.

    And it is lightweight for easy portability.

    And it has a superb line out.

    If that makes me a curmudgeon, I"m comfortable with that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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  11. Apache Snow

    Apache Snow Tele-Meister

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    I've had a Deluxe Reverb for three months now. It sounds great and puts a smile on my face when I play it. All this other stuff is just so much BS to me.
     
  12. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I haven’t said the amps are built bad, look bad, sound bad or are priced bad.
    All my comments were about Fender marketing terminology choices.
    Even suggesting they make the computer a replaceable part was a compliment.

    I think you’re confusing internet hate for modeling with my comments and questions largely about the broad confused language around gear and amps in particular.
    I have no hate for modelers and am probably the target end user of this sort of amp.
    I’ve even suggested here in the past that we might buy modelers if they had knobs rather than menus.
     
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  13. beyer160

    beyer160 Friend of Leo's

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    I did NOT need to read this. I have amps coming out my ears, but there's a SF Pro on my local Craigslist...
     
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  14. beyer160

    beyer160 Friend of Leo's

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    Fair enough, I wouldn't want that in a stage amp either. But the idea that the only two choices available are "so easy a caveman could do it" and "space shuttle flight deck" is a false dichotomy. Did people freak out about having a two knob tonestack instead of a single tone control when the blackface Deluxes came out? It did double the number of controls, after all.
     
  15. 1300 E Valencia

    1300 E Valencia Friend of Leo's

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    Please show us where, in the description on Fender's product page, where this word "scaling" exists.

    I see the following:

    “85W performance; 6-position power output level switch”

    “Rear-panel output power selector for full power and five attenuated settings”

    “5-WAY POWER ATTENUATOR SWITCH”

    A couple references to "attenuation", which, while we've gotten used to the word meaning a giant resistor that soaks up the signal going to the speaker, Fender probably just means "the volume goes down".

    Not as romantic as "Variable Quantum-Tunneling Energy-Release Control", and certainly marketing-speak. But consumers are not going to read long boring technical explanations of why it's not this, or why it should be called that. The main marketing points are it weighs a bunch less, it sounds as good as, there's built-in stuff or recording and not waking the baby up.

    Everything else is angels on the head of a pin. No One Cares.
     
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  16. DougM

    DougM Friend of Leo's

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    Are you offended that Fender (because of Leo) calls a Strat vibrato a "tremolo" and the tremolo on their classic amps "vibrato" (also because of Leo)?
    As to planned obsolescence, that's what all companies do to generate sales of new and (hopefully) improved products. Does Honda need a new Civic or Toyota a new Corolla or Chevy a new Corvette every year? No, but they've been doing it since the beginning of the auto industry.
     
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  17. artdecade

    artdecade Poster Extraordinaire

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    Total aside: In the 80s, there was a Guitar Magazine interview with Carl Wilson of the Beach Boys where he mentions that he doesn't use dirt boxes, but just turns his Twin up when he needs some grind. Cranking a Twin for dirt... man. That's awesome.
     
  18. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    My apologies for commenting on power scaling terminology that is not in fact used on the amps in question.
    I was commenting based on other posts and assumed the term used in a post was used on the amp.

    At the same time though, I’m pretty sure there is no electronically real “5-way power attenuator” connected to that “switch” and the power amp doesn't actually have six output levels.

    But Fender in all its marketing wisdom chose words “us” old guys with tube amps could relate to.
    Apologies if you’re not an old guy with tube amps!!!

    When Fender releases the Mustang floor stomp equivalent of the tone masters, how will they label those power amp features that are actually in the computer?
    I’m thinking they withhold a few desirable features from any floor modelers for at least a few more years.

    I mean I like the solid finger jointed pine and pretty cosmetics, but those cosmetics are probably the bulk of the retail price.

    My bet is:
    If it sounded the same but looked like a typical modern 100w class D bass combo it would be way cheaper and sell poorly.
    How much does a Fender 100w class D bass combo sell for?
    How much more for the processor that masters the tone?

    Fender was smart with these amps and they certainly nail a niche.
    Now maybe they can put fat necks on cheap guitars?
     
  19. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    I was hoping for SS frets to be introduced on the Ultras. Nope :(
     
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  20. mabinogeon

    mabinogeon Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    I still have nightmares about my Cyber Twin.
     
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