Is analog really more expensive to make at scale?

[RLangham98]

I mean, I really don’t care as long as it sounds the same, but I found out something kind of striking the other day. Some of Boss’ modulation effects like CH-1 and BF-3 are very competently executed DSP. This didn’t use to be the case, I think the CH-1 was originally analog and the BF-2 was analog. Behringer has cloned these as DSP pedals as well. I would assume that’s because the DSP version is cheaper to make. Fine and dandy, I really don’t care in practice.

But on some level, and maybe this is me living in the 80’s, it’s surprising to me that that would be the case. Is a microcontroller sophisticated enough to run modern DSP, plus the discrete components and ancillary IC’s necessary to make it work in a pedal, really cheaper than, in this case, a bucket brigade chip and its associated parts? I’m not saying that couldn’t be the case and I’m not saying that Roland is even wrong to use DSP if it saves a few dollars… it just seems weird to me that that’s how the cost would break down. Is it in assembly cost? Or is there some overwhelming benefit to DSP, like drastic noise reduction or consistency?

I’ve looked at a schematic for the Analogman Mini Chorus, just to see what the pot values were, and if I remember right it’s got about five to seven IC’s and maybe a couple dozen discrete components? Knowing that most of those are simple mass produced IC’s that cost cents, it’s really no surprise that there’s analog clones of popular chorus circuits for under fifty USD. Whereas a specialized microcontroller can cost several dollars per unit, I think.

But looking at the market it seems like gain pedals are one of the only things that hasn’t significantly shifted to digital, so I must be wrong about something, huh? Again, I have no problem with digital when it sounds the same or does things analog can’t do, I’m just surprised that it seems cheaper to make looking from the outside.

 

[Gladhander]

Boss moved a few over to DSP. I had a BF-2 that I sold. I bought a BF-3 to replace it. What a difference for the worse. I love a super clean digital delay but I prefer my mods in analog. The exception being the Mathew’s Chemist. It sounds great.

 

[NewTimerJH]

I don’t know a ton about this, but I assume to some extent it’s because robotics and populate and solder a board easily?

 

[RLangham98]

I don’t know a ton about this, but I assume to some extent it’s because robotics and populate and solder a board easily?

I think this has something to do with it but it’s a question of degrees, right?

Like, most non-trivial modern effects, digital or analog, are gonna have a board with multiple IC’s, and a fair amount of discrete components largely to provide power, protection and communication between those IC’s. Analog effects are now frequently made robotically with surface-mounted components too. FWIW Josh Scott, not that his opinion is law or anything, said that he was against the idea until he made a prototype surface-mount Morning Glory and saw that the noise was reduced due to the reduction in overall conductor lengths. Since then he went to surface mount which seems like a common story.

So you’re probably right but there has to be other factors I think.

 

[Suproman]

I think some of it has to do with availability of parts, especially for the modulation pedals. Some of the ICs used are no longer in production.

 

[Lawdawg]

I think it just depends. I'm no expert, but I believe that most digital effects use simple mass produced DSP chips that can do what ever effect a programmer wants it to. There are huge cost savings in that a company like Boss can buy 1 or two chip types for their entire line vs. different analog components needed for different pedals. It also makes manufacturing much easier and less expensive across the line.

With regard to analog pedals, just using your BBD based chorus pedal as an example, some of the analog components are no longer readily available. There are modern BBD chips, but supposedly they are not the same as the old BBD chips manufactured by Panasonic. My Cluster Flux uses two NOS Panasonic MN3008 BBD chips, when Moog's supply of those chips ran out they just discontinued the pedal and ultimately the entire moogerfooger line. Yes, there are modern Chinese manufactured equivalents, but they don't have the same performance specs as the old Japanese manufactured BBD chips.

All of the above is just a long way of saying that a modern inexpensive analog pedal isn't going to perform the same as its older equivalent, and for a lot of folks, myself included, a modern digital emulation is often better than a cheap analog equivalent. To get the same analog sound from a modern analog pedal usually ends up being an expensive/boutique proposition.

 

[brown2bob]

I think some of it has to do with availability of parts, especially for the modulation pedals. Some of the ICs used are no longer in production.

This is very true. Also, some analog pedals require matching specific component values to get the best results... Very expensive.

If it's any consolation, all (I'm going out on a limb here but a super high percentage) of all modern recording are stored in digital and converted back to analog at playback. So in theory, if you have a really good algorithm for the effect, it should be pretty darn close to the original with quality A/D-D/A type converters.

 

[Blrfl]

I think it just depends. I'm no expert, but I believe that most digital effects use simple mass produced DSP chips that can do what ever effect a programmer wants it to. There are huge cost savings in that a company like Boss can buy 1 or two chip types for their entire line vs. different analog components needed for different pedals. It also makes manufacturing much easier and less expensive across the line.

Which, for what it's worth, is exactly how Roland operates. They have a handful of custom-fabbed, system-on-a-chip devices that underpin pretty much everything digital they make. That gives them a huge quantity advantage for just the part, plus they can re-use designs for the analog sections across multiple products, saving even more. Really, all that changes between pedals is the switchgear and maybe the number of inputs and outputs.

One other advantage of going DSP is that if they make an engineering mistake in the software, it can be corrected with new firmware. Instead of having to send your pedal in so some guy with a soldering iron can swap R17 out for what should have been the correct value in the first place, it's ten minutes for a firmware upgrade and you're back in business.

 

[toanhunter]

not all DSP is the same, I love the japanese made boss pedals, I once had a MIJ boss DD3 with the DSP chip in it from the 80s, technically it's digital but it sounded amazing, nothing like modern ones, warmer, it's the same thing with for example old lexicon reverbs, they are DSP chips but they have a certain grainy sound that even though technically digital, they sound warm and analog like.

 

[RLangham98]

I think some of it has to do with availability of parts, especially for the modulation pedals. Some of the ICs used are no longer in production.

I mean yeah but I find that a little hard to swallow when there are 40 dollar new analog choruses that replicate earlier pedals from Boss, Analogman et cetera with high levels of fidelity.

I have the demonFX mini chorus, an Analogman mini chorus clone that sells really cheap used, and it sounds EXACTLY like the recordings I’ve heard.

What I think is the case is that there are tons of BBD (for example) chipsets still being made, some of which might not be the ones used in a CE-1 in the golden age, but which can be used in a retooled version of the same circuit for the same purpose.

Like for heaven’s sake I have a $20 analog delay from VSn in China.

 

[bottlenecker]

What I think is the case is that there are tons of BBD (for example) chipsets still being made, some of which might not be the ones used in a CE-1 in the golden age, but which can be used in a retooled version of the same circuit for the same purpose.

This is not the case. Not still. BBDs were out of production and going extinct 10 years ago. In 2015 a Moog employee told me they were getting their BBDs from ebay. Pedal builders were buying any lots of NOS BBDs they could find. Then Xvive started making new BBDs. I don't know what quantity they produce, or how cheap they are. I think Xvive's own echoman (designed by the DMM guy) is about $70. A DOD rubberneck is $360.

Like for heaven’s sake I have a $20 analog delay from VSn in China.

I bet it's not analog. 10 to 1 it's a 2399, which is a primitive digital chip that is often used in pedals sold as "analog" by makers of $20 pedals.

 

[RLangham98]

This is not the case. Not still. BBDs were out of production and going extinct 10 years ago. In 2015 a Moog employee told me they were getting their BBDs from ebay. Pedal builders were buying any lots of NOS BBDs they could find. Then Xvive started making new BBDs. I don't know what quantity they produce, or how cheap they are. I think Xvive's own echoman (designed by the DMM guy) is about $70. A DOD rubberneck is $360.


I bet it's not analog. 10 to 1 it's a 2399, which is a primitive digital chip that is often used in pedals sold as "analog" by makers of $20 pedals.

I mean it wouldn’t bum me out too badly if that were the case, six of one half a dozen of the other, my other delays have all been digital. But this one behaves like an analog when I change the delay time (pitch bent “crazy” echoes that kinda run away if the feedback is turned up).

Would that digital chipset do that? I have an ultra cheap Chinese digital delay that someone gave me that doesn’t act that way, and then of course the DL4 models different delays so it acts that way when it’s modeling something that would, like tape or bucket brigade. So I know that digital can do that, but doesn’t always.

 

[telemnemonics]

Any time a new tech replaces an old tech, trying to use the old tech becomes specialty production because it is “obsolete”.

I would say DSP can hold so many FX in a chip that it may also be more expensive pre effect to use a chip for only on effect then requiring ten pedals to do the job of one multi using the same chip.

 

[bottlenecker]

I mean it wouldn’t bum me out too badly if that were the case, six of one half a dozen of the other, my other delays have all been digital. But this one behaves like an analog when I change the delay time (pitch bent “crazy” echoes that kinda run away if the feedback is turned up).

Would that digital chipset do that? I have an ultra cheap Chinese digital delay that someone gave me that doesn’t act that way, and then of course the DL4 models different delays so it acts that way when it’s modeling something that would, like tape or bucket brigade. So I know that digital can do that, but doesn’t always.

Yup, that's the 2399's thing. It's a lo fi digital chip that was originally designed for karaoke machines. Someone designed an "analog style" delay with it, and everyone copied it. I'm not sure what the first one was, but I remember EHX's "#1 Echo" had shifty language describing it's "analog sound". The amazon brands just straight up lie and call them analog.
Small pedal builders have started designing pedals around the 2399, and now there are some really interesting and cool delays using them. I used to turn my nose up at anything 2399, and now I have two 2399 based pedals on my board, though they're not straight delays.

 

[Dostradamas]

Whale oil was the world's oil til it wasn't.

Try to buy a gallon of it today

 

[northernguitar]

Have Joyo, Mooer, et al ever released a pedal of their own design? They’ve cranked out analog clones of classic (eg Fulltone OCD) or niche (Tech 21 Sansamp Series) pedals by the hundreds of thousands, all cheap as chips.

 

[RLangham98]

Whale oil was the world's oil til it wasn't.

Try to buy a gallon of it today

I've heard, and I may be misremembering the decade here, but I've heard that as late as the 60's some grades of automatic transmission fluid contained whale oil. I don't know what specific quality made it desirable, but I think it was in the original Mercon and Dextron formulations. Today I think you use... is it Type F that substitutes for the early D/M formulas? Which means that some chemist out there had to figure out what oil is closest to whale oil to act as a replacement.

 

[RLangham98]

I used to turn my nose up at anything 2399, and now I have two 2399 based pedals on my board, though they're not straight delays.

Oh very interesting... are they mod effects? That would be essentially a digital mod effect, but not technically DSP in the conventional sense.

 

[Dostradamas]

I've heard, and I may be misremembering the decade here, but I've heard that as late as the 60's some grades of automatic transmission fluid contained whale oil. I don't know what specific quality made it desirable, but I think it was in the original Mercon and Dextron formulations. Today I think you use... is it Type F that substitutes for the early D/M formulas? Which means that some chemist out there had to figure out what oil is closest to whale oil to act as a replacement.

And you missed my point completely.

Groovy

Enjoy the flowers

 

[RLangham98]

And you missed my point completely.

Groovy

Enjoy the flowers

Jesus dude I was just sharing a piece of trivia that that reminded me of. I understood your point