Intonation Question

[Slowtwitch]

First off, I know age of strings affect intonation. 2nd, I know a bunch of things affect intonation, however hear me out:

I'm wondering about the intonation of 2 of my complete built guitars (25'5" scale) I've had for a few years. My comparison is with my MIA Fender Strat, using the same gauge and make of strings (10's & 11's Ernie Ball usually).
The setup on both builds use a Wilkinson 3 barrel Tele compensation bridge, and both guitars' intonation is very good with new strings. I repeat... very good intonation with new strings.
However I find that the intonation goes way out of wack when the strings becomes older. Now with my strat, it also goes out, but only marginally as expected, and I can still use it live without any notice (tweaking the tuning), however with both the builds, when the strings, especially the e, b and g string becomes a bit older, they go way out up the neck, and I'm wondering why so much more than with my strat??

Now my only reference with tele setups are my own built guitars, Is this a common thing with tele's as the strings age, something to do with the reduced level of intonation presicion due to the 3 barrel bridge, or is there something else I'm missing?

Because they intonate well with new strings, I can't think that it is to do with fret position accuracy or bridge placement....

Any thoughts?

 

[Ronkirn]

strings stretch as they age... the degree to which they do so is not consistent throughout the length of the strings... thus, after a few months, the first 6 inches (just to randomly pick a number) may be a different diameter, or some other metric.. than the next 6 inches.. and so on down the string.

further exacerbating the situation is the windings on wound strings can shift, come loose, pickup grit and grime.. also effecting the relative "mass" of the differing sections of the string... example, if the string has a different mass between the nut and the 12th fret than it does between that fret and the bridge.. each half will vibrate at a different rate.. that's bad intonation...

then there is YOU.. a guitarist with a softer touch will be able to play strings longer than some gorilla gripping "banger" that plays like he hates the guitar.. that stretches the hell out of strings...

so.. Dudes, change your strings often... It kills me to hear guys say they like old strings... in the hey-day of the Surf Music days, we changed 'em prior to every gig... sometimes that was as often as once every few months.

 

[Boreas]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.

Only half of a string gets abused/stretched by fingertips and frets. The other half is only attacked by picks and plucked by fingertips or nails. Trem systems add even more sources of distortion. Is it any wonder a simple strand of wire wears and distorts differently throughout its length?

 

[Controller]

Give em time, they'll settle in. After a few years you'll get real comfortable with the sound.

 

[Killing Floor]

Intonation is related to the length or f the “speaking length” of the string. That’s the exact distance between the witness point on your nut and the witness point on your bridge.

Are you suggesting that your neck gets longer or shorter as your strings age? Because that’s what intonation is. Assuming your frets don’t move forward or aft in their slots the only way intonation can change is if you move the bend over your nut OR the saddle is adjusted intentionally or otherwise. Sorry, physics is a cruel mistress. Fixed wave equation isn’t negotiable.
Possibly your neck is contracting due to humidity change. Check that too.
But it’s not your strings.

 

[kuch]

do you stretch your strings when you install them?
your guitar does "warm up" as you play it, do you retune after playing for a while?

 

[Nick Fanis]

Any string will die sonically and loose its intonation ability after 6-10 hours of actual playing time.

If you play clean you can easily notice this
especially if TWANG is your thing.

 

[Slowtwitch]

I don't always have the luxury of changing strings often, and yes strings do age under my fingers quicker than with others.
HOWEVER, that's not the point of this thread, as I described, there's a marked difference in how quickly and to what extent my own guitars' loose intonation vs my MIA strat for the same amount of playing/ abuse, and I'm trying to figure out if the hardware (i.e. type of bridge) is the difference, or what is....

 

[cousinpaul]

I'm not crazy about the Wilkinson saddles. It's a one size fits all approach and I found them to be over-compensated on my guitar to the extent that I flipped them over and use them as standard barrels. I've got Rutters notched saddles on another guitar and find them to be far superior. One thing that might be helpful would be paying some attention to the strings break angle. Top-loading can ease the break angle and possibly give your strings longer life. Once you've worn a kink in the string, it will want to return to that spot when tuning. The nut and string trees can also be problem areas. Next time you change strings, examine the old ones for kinks and possible areas of concern.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Slowtwitch, explain "goes way out of wack". If you have the new strings perfectly intonated when you install them (how do you do that, how do you measure?) what happens as they age? And confirm that you are putting the same gauges on all the guitars and that it is the first three that "go out of wack". What time period are we talking about?

Does your strat have a tremolo? Do you use it? Same strings as the teles? Does it stay in tune?

What do you mean your strings "go way out up the neck"? Are you talking about fretted notes not being in tune? Again, how are you measuring that?

Are your setups exactly the same on all of your guitars? What are your setup values.

I'm trying to better understand your problem before I comment.

 

[schmee]

I don't have that problem. I change strings every 4-8 hours of live playing.
Now 24.75 scale? It always sounds worse to me for some reason.

 

[bumnote]

I used those saddles before and liked them a lot. They stayed permanently on one.
Like others have said, new strings are an issue...can be a big one and it's usually the case.

But it's also not always the case...especially with builds. Half of my Fenders are either complete builds, partials or in the case of my favorite Strat...a collection of real Fender parts swapped in and out of the years. I've always had the hardest time with getting my builds' setup dialed in correctly. The specs of the various parts sometimes just don't fit together right even when they're all built well and to correct specs. My favorite Strat is my goto example of all the right parts accidentally falling perfectly into place. I had a 57RI and a 62RI and out of curiosity swapped neck to see what they'd look like. The combo of the 62 neck on the 57 body was perfect, these two parts made a few years apart fit together like they were cut the same day from the same piece of wood. Long story short, I've done all sorts of mods to it and it just can't be messed up. Last spring I took the bridge apart for some reason and when I put it back together...I was really lazy in my approach. I set the radius by just setting the height of each string until it didn't fret-out...and used a E-bow to do intonation. Played perfectly...the sum of the parts of that guitar is a very fortunate fluke. It's extraordinary forgiving.
My favorite Tele on the other hand...if I tried to set that guitar up that way, it would sound like complete garbage. It's a 80% non-Fender parts build. Nothing cheap...Lollars, Musikraft neck, MJT body, titanium saddles, etc...but you really have to fine tune the setup or it sounds like the intonation is off. These are somethings I've done to correct my issues...I'm sure several of these things you've tried.

Strings? EB's may not be right for the guitar. I can like D'addario's most of the time, they're a safe bet and I always seem to have a set on hand. I have 2 guitars that just don't like 'em. They wear out faster than EB's or Stringjoys and on one Strat just sound dead fast. Nothing wrong with that guitar or strings...they just don't work together well even through the saddles and nuts on all my Strats are the same makes.
Another possible issue with strings...gauge and pickup height. I used to love 10-38's on my Strats, but the low E was an intonation nightmare, especially as the string aged and stretched. The pull on the thinner string was too much for the height of the pickups. Hated the sound of the pickups when I lowered them so now I use 10-48's on Strats. I also play with a wound 3rd. If you have pickups with a vintage stagger, it can make an unwound 3rd sound harsh.

Saddle and nut. Are they smooth? They could be just rough enough to avoid that sharp 'ping' noise, but still have too rough of a surface. Are the saddle height adjustment screws sitting firmly on the plate? I use to have a Strat saddle that I always had to give a little push forward towards the neck every once in awhile to get it back on the right spot.

Finish, since it's a build how thick is it? I do my own neck finishes and for the first couple of years, I expect the necks to give me more problems during seasonal changes...and they do. I use a very minimal amount of nitro on the necks so they react to temperature and humidity changes a lot more than my real Fender necks.

 

[Boreas]

Unless you can quantify and match your "playing/abuse" on each instrument, it is going to be difficult to come up with a cause. Is one rhythm, the other solos? One for cowboy chords, the other for up the neck?

Do you find yourself having to adjust relief or action more often on one of the instruments?

I have always "perceived" a trem to be more inconsistent with intonation, and my ear tends to be more forgiving with trem-equipped guitars vs. guitars with no moving parts. Could intonation error just be more noticeable on the Tele?

 

[AAT65]

Intonation is related to the length or f the “speaking length” of the string. That’s the exact distance between the witness point on your nut and the witness point on your bridge.

Are you suggesting that your neck gets longer or shorter as your strings age? Because that’s what intonation is. Assuming your frets don’t move forward or aft in their slots the only way intonation can change is if you move the bend over your nut OR the saddle is adjusted intentionally or otherwise. Sorry, physics is a cruel mistress. Fixed wave equation isn’t negotiable.
Possibly your neck is contracting due to humidity change. Check that too.
But it’s not your strings.

Take a look at Ron Kirn’s very detailed post above. There’s more to a string than just its length.
Post in thread 'Intonation Question'
https://www.tdpri.com/threads/intonation-question.1124457/post-11779375

 

[old school fender]

I don't always have the luxury of changing strings often, and yes strings do age under my fingers quicker than with others.
HOWEVER, that's not the point of this thread, as I described, there's a marked difference in how quickly and to what extent my own guitars' loose intonation vs my MIA strat for the same amount of playing/ abuse, and I'm trying to figure out if the hardware (i.e. type of bridge) is the difference, or what is....

Do these different guitars have the same fret wire. Are there differences in not only the fret wire size but also in material that would affect hardness or softness. Not that fret wire is wearing quick enough to throw your intonation off but your strings could be wearing quicker due to fret wire. I know I do a lot of heavy string bending and after a very short time with pure nickel strings there underside will begin to form indentions where they are contacting the fret. Anything affecting string length will throw the intonation off. If you get enough "notches " in the bottom of the string causing the string to sit lower on the fret that will effectively change string length and consequently intonation. Just a suggestion of a possible contributing factor.

 

[Killing Floor]

Take a look at Ron Kirn’s very detailed post above. There’s more to a string than just its length.
Post in thread 'Intonation Question'
https://www.tdpri.com/threads/intonation-question.1124457/post-11779375

All due respect to him, I’m happy to debate vibrations with anyone. Harmonics on a fixed wave never (never), [NEVER EVER] change positions.

Physics is not negotiable.

I can offer proof, for example, that the exact middle point of any line is equidistant to each end.

Time and environment and cycles of use can cause predictable changes to the material. But 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc. those don’t change on the same neck.

 

[AAT65]

All due respect to him, I’m happy to debate vibrations with anyone. Harmonics on a fixed wave never (never), [NEVER EVER] change positions.

Physics is not negotiable.

I can offer proof, for example, that the exact middle point of any line is equidistant to each end.

Time and environment and cycles of use can cause predictable changes to the material. But 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc. those don’t change on the same neck.

But if one half of the string has undergone different changes than the other — say because it gets pushed against frets all the time as pointed by Boreas in post #3 — then maybe the two halves of the string won’t act identically even if they are the same length.
Harmonics on an ideal string don’t change: but out here in the real world things can be more complicated.

 

[Slowtwitch]

Here's the guitars in question, and some more info:

On all the electric guitars we use a 1.0 thick/ stiff pick. strings would be 10-48 or 11-52. Our weather in South Africa is much more moderate/ less extremes than other parts of the world, so don't find we need to adjust say neck relieve between seasons.
Setup I would say I pay a great deal of time to setup each guitar. Setup specs would be to Fender specs (string height, relieve, pup height....) intonation is checked every time new strings goes on (open string/ 12th string harmonic/ fretted 12th string).

My Tele with Wilky bridge with B5 trem. Lives in it's case. Both my son and I play this guitar. Not too much string bending, little use of trem, but we play lead and rhythm. Intonation goes off after say 8hrs play and becomes really false after say 16hrs play.



The Bird (my son's guitar): Tele geometry, neck-through construction, Wilky bridge. Lives hanging on the wall and we live by the coast. Both our hands are acidic and the strings do "corrode". Just quaifying - it's not rusty, just not shiny and in pristine condition after time (see below). Not too much string bending, but he plays lead and rhythm. He is lighter on his strings than I i.e. lighter strumming and attack on the strings.
This guitar's intonation goes out the most. It starts happening (noticing it) after about 8 hours of play (can be as little as a week), but then will get to the point of just sounding false higher up the neck (it goes flat), so you can tune it to have either lower frets in tune or high up, but it just sounds silly when playing all over the neck. You can't even use it in a live rock band setup then - this with say 15hrs of play on it.



MIA strat, lives in it's case, lot's of string bending and heavy use of floating trem. When I played alot, it would be say 1-2 hrs a day, but even after 20 hrs of play the intonation is still such that I can use the guitar in a live band setting, but normally would change the thinner strings say once a week. Have never felt I had to change the strings due to the intonation being too far out, but yes fresh strings sound better, but is not always possible for various reasons.


There is off course also my acoustic guitar (Cort, but higher end model), the strings on there is 6 months plus old, prob 100 plus hrs of play, intonation is off past the 11th fret, but I can still use it in a live band setting without it sounding false in the mix past the 11th fret if I had to. (I only play this guitar up to the 11th fret and only rhythm cords), and somehow it still sounds good enough with the old strings on for live playing.

But what I'm hearing from you, is not anything to do with build quality or even hardware choice, it's mainly just string age, but as I said above, there just seems to be a marked difference between the amount of deterioration of intonation from my Fender and acoustic guitar to the others. And I can live with it/ work around it, was just hoping to maybe get to the reason for what we're experiencing.

 

[Slowtwitch]

Slowtwitch, explain "goes way out of wack". If you have the new strings perfectly intonated when you install them (how do you do that, how do you measure?) what happens as they age? And confirm that you are putting the same gauges on all the guitars and that it is the first three that "go out of wack". What time period are we talking about?

Does your strat have a tremolo? Do you use it? Same strings as the teles? Does it stay in tune?

What do you mean your strings "go way out up the neck"? Are you talking about fretted notes not being in tune? Again, how are you measuring that?

Are your setups exactly the same on all of your guitars? What are your setup values.

I'm trying to better understand your problem before I comment.

FK, hope I've answered some of your questions in my post above

 

[Ronkirn]

Physics is not negotiable.

as possibly the only guy on these forums that has sat with Hans Bethe and Wernher von Braun and had a discussion about that very topic.. indeed.. Science does not give a rat's behind about our opinions... it is never negotiable.. unless someone throws out there something like the variable Speed of Light Theory...rapidly becoming not a theory...

that said.. here's a fact.. If you have a string that vibrating with several nodes and any one of them has more mass due to whatever... dirt, shifted windings, or it has been stretched... it's gonna oscillate at an irregular rate relative to the others... every time...

SO use clean new strings and your chances of intonation issues diminish precipitously..