Inspiration from violin makers

[Teladjacent]

I’ve been interested in building guitars for a long time. I was perusing the library and came across books on violin making. I know nothing about violins, but it was really inspiring.

A couple things I noticed:

- There is an assumption in these books that almost all the work will be done with hand tools. They are not trying to replicate a mass production in a diy setting.

- The form, shape, and materials vary, but much less than for guitars. The marks of the maker are more subtle. You have to know what you’re looking for (I don’t!).

- They are not “dipped in glass” smooth. The finish is elegant, but less perfect.

- They look hand made. Well made, but definitely hand made.

I don’t really have a point other than to say that the minimal tool setup of the violin making books was inspiring.

 

[guitarbuilder]

The odd thing about guitar making is that most of the time you are replicating factory made products and the "art" of hand made is trying to make it look like it is factory made. Of course that isn't always the case, as I do my own thing and rarely produce anything that looks like a production item. Since sanding and finishing makes or breaks the "factory" look, that's one place, among others, where one can separate from the factory, if they so choose. People that watch internet videos seem to want to replicate what they see there, for better or worse. You can make a guitar with hand tools too, but most people don't want to learn how to use them. As always, YMMV.

 

[Tall-Fir]

I had a violin maker work on my Martin D-35 years ago. He scalloped the bracing! Really “loosened up” my D-35’s sound, larger and more well rounded. Any way, he used a plane not much larger than an average adults thumb and did it using that plane working through the sound hole!

 

[Freeman Keller]

Bowed instruments (violins, cellos, et al) are very different from mass produced solid body electric guitars. The bodies, top and backs are carved out of solid blocks of wood and as wood is removed the sound changes. A good violin maker has learned, usually by studying under an experienced maker, what to listen to and a what to feel about the wood as she carves. It is as much an art form as anything else.

Violins have been extensively studied over their three centuries of building and playing. I subscribe to several lutherie publications that have many many articles about the grand instruments and what (supposedly) makes them sound the way they do.

The term "luthier" is over used today - I have built 30 guitars but I don't yet call myself by that term. I have too much respect for the builders who have earned the title - many of them build bowed instruments.

Violins have some things in common with carved acoustic guitars and mandolin family instruments. They work differently of course but the construction is similar. I have built carved archtop instruments, I can promise that the work involved is many times what goes into a flat topped acoustic guitar and many many many times a solid body electric.

And finally, in this modern age, violin makers are using more technology - cnc milled tops and backs are common, many builders use duplicarving routers to rough shape the plates. And while I do use technology in my building I know it can never replace the hands and ears of a master builder with fifty years of experience.

If you want to see how an archtop guitar is made this might be of interest

Lets build something that looks like an L5 archtop

Do we really need another stinkin' build thread? I've debate for a long time doing this (and I certainly may bail out at some point) but I would like to think this will be enough different that a few of you might enjoy watching. In my short lutherie learning experience I have built almost...

www.tdpri.com

 

[RogerC]

The term "luthier" is over used today - I have built 30 guitars but I don't yet call myself by that term. I have too much respect for the builders who have earned the title - many of them build bowed instruments.

This. Too often you see guys who've built a few Teles and are a "luthier" all of a sudden. I'm just a guitar builder. Not a luthier.

Of course I'm not one to make more of myself than what's accurate. There are certainly people out there who've built careers on doing just the opposite, however.

 

[Teladjacent]

I am neither a guitar maker or a luthier, but I'd love to make a flat top acoustic. Maybe I'll dedicate some time and go for it. We'll see.

If you want to see how an archtop guitar is made this might be of interest

Lets build something that looks like an L5 archtop

Do we really need another stinkin' build thread? I've debate for a long time doing this (and I certainly may bail out at some point) but I would like to think this will be enough different that a few of you might enjoy watching. In my short lutherie learning experience I have built almost...

www.tdpri.com

I followed this thread closely. Beautiful work. Very cool to feel like I could look over your shoulder at the bench.

 

[Freeman Keller]

I am neither a guitar maker or a luthier, but I'd love to make a flat top acoustic. Maybe I'll dedicate some time and go for it. We'll see.

If you do decide to build a flat top let me know. I have lots of ideas and love leading people astray, er helping them.

I did build one lately that might be more in line with your violin building ideas of hand tools and and doing things the old way. During the pandemic I built a classical (nylon string) guitar out of materials that I had (no cost), using hand tools (well, as much as I could). I used the traditional hide glue (violin makers us it because it can be taken apart and violins are often disassembled to work on them. I also used traditional shellac finish in what is called French polish, which is sometimes used on violins (every make has his or her secret varnish or finish).

Classicals are built differently from steel string guitars so don't get too hung up in the details, but here is the thread from that little project

My classical challenge

I decided to give myself a little challenge. This has nothing to do with the brotherhood thing - its just something I want to do with myself. It might fail dramatically - you'll know if it does. Background. My first guitar was built in 2014 from plans from Stewart McDonald and the classic...

www.tdpri.com

 

[brookdalebill]

Violins are wonderful, beautiful and inspiring instruments.
They are both delicate and a marvel of engineering.
My Dad played, and the first music I heard and loved was my Dad’s virtuoso classical violin albums.
Like many father-idolizing kids, I attempted to play it, too.
Alas, my body dislikes the physicality/technique of how it’s played.
It’s a difficult and demanding instrument to play, even fairly well.
I still love and respect the violin.

 

[monkeybanana]

Bowed instruments (violins, cellos, et al) are very different from mass produced solid body electric guitars. The bodies, top and backs are carved out of solid blocks of wood and as wood is removed the sound changes. A good violin maker has learned, usually by studying under an experienced maker, what to listen to and a what to feel about the wood as she carves. It is as much an art form as anything else.

Violins have been extensively studied over their three centuries of building and playing. I subscribe to several lutherie publications that have many many articles about the grand instruments and what (supposedly) makes them sound the way they do.

The term "luthier" is over used today - I have built 30 guitars but I don't yet call myself by that term. I have too much respect for the builders who have earned the title - many of them build bowed instruments.

Violins have some things in common with carved acoustic guitars and mandolin family instruments. They work differently of course but the construction is similar. I have built carved archtop instruments, I can promise that the work involved is many times what goes into a flat topped acoustic guitar and many many many times a solid body electric.

And finally, in this modern age, violin makers are using more technology - cnc milled tops and backs are common, many builders use duplicarving routers to rough shape the plates. And while I do use technology in my building I know it can never replace the hands and ears of a master builder with fifty years of experience.

If you want to see how an archtop guitar is made this might be of interest

Lets build something that looks like an L5 archtop

Do we really need another stinkin' build thread? I've debate for a long time doing this (and I certainly may bail out at some point) but I would like to think this will be enough different that a few of you might enjoy watching. In my short lutherie learning experience I have built almost...

www.tdpri.com

You are a luthier. Your builds and repairs are no beginner projects.

 

[1bad914]

I agree with Freeman. I have built a few guitars, but I am not a luthier. If someone asks what I do in retirement, “play golf and tinker in my wood shop”. I have studied building violins, they fascinate me.

 

[Lingwendil]

One thing that researching violins, and then contrastingly into less "refined" european folk instrument design and tradition has shown me is that the violin guys are in their own world- very exacting details they pay attention to out of about a half dozen set designs based on the old masters. Making a violin is more of the experience of replicating specific designs, and then tailoring the specific instrument to sound its best. Modern versions are still based on set ideas, with any variation tending to be regarded differently. A joke I have heard from several violin-specific luthiers is that anything that isn't a classic design is better sold to the fiddle players, rather than the classically trained artists

Guitar guys, banjo guys, even fiddle guys are much more tolerant of tweaks and personalization- unless going for a replica sort of build.

I have built two violins, one Amati, one Stradivari design. I cannot play very well and find that the scale length and playing style doesn't fit me well. I sold both for a good price to local fiddle players, and they were very happy with them.



After some time I became more interested in more folk style instruments of antiquity, and applied some tweaks based on the violin family to them- primarily the Talharpa and Jouhikko. My modifications are that I apply a bass bar and sound post like a violin, and build them with the same scale length as a violin. They are tuned an octave lower than the violin as I build them. Two, three, and four string versions depending on what you want.

Note how it's played between the knees, but with a bow. You "fret" the strings in open air- no fingerboard!


Here's a nice three string I made of spruce with maple fittings. I shaped the tuning pegs myself. Entire project was made with leftovers from other projects.

This one is made of cherry, with western red cedar front and back. Very lightweight and warm sound.

Being folk instruments you get a "fiddle" sort of sound, with lots of variation inherent to what is basically a peasant instrument. Think of these like the european counterpart to the american "cigar box" fiddles.

 

[Teladjacent]

Note how it's played between the knees, but with a bow. You "fret" the strings in open air- no fingerboard!

Those are cool. Nice work. Maybe not for me. I have enough trouble playing in tune with geared timers and frets.

 

[haggardfan1]

Violins are wonderful, beautiful and inspiring instruments.
They are both delicate and a marvel of engineering.
My Dad played, and the first music I heard and loved was my Dad’s virtuoso classical violin albums.
Like many father-idolizing kids, I attempted to play it, too.
Alas, my body dislikes the physicality/technique of how it’s played.
It’s a difficult and demanding instrument to play, even fairly well.
I still love and respect the violin.

This, x1000. I have owned a fiddle since the early 1980s and have performed with one onstage exactly one time. It wasn't terrible; but it was terrifying. I was the lead guitarist for a country gospel group, and I worked up one instrumental medley and played only that number.

I don't remember the entire quote exactly, but Merle Haggard once told Ralph Emery in an interview that songs are like animals in a show: you can work with them and they'll do what they're expected to do, until one night they don't--and most times you have no idea why.

Nowhere is that more true than when saps like me attempt to play the fiddle.
And it is indeed a lot more physically demanding than you think.

 

[Teladjacent]

If you do decide to build a flat top let me know. I have lots of ideas and love leading people astray, er helping t

I definitely want to do it. It seems a bit like jumping into the deep end to learn how to swim. I've wondered if it would be better to build an electric or ukulele first.

 

[dogmeat]

many years ago I too looked at building a violin. I even had most of the tools traditionally used (still do) because I do woodwork as a (serious) hobby. this book had a full size pattern and all critical dimensions as well as discussion about every aspect in building it, and the history, and evolution of design. I was blown away by the complexity of the carving, and the number of parts it takes to build one.

 

[glenlivet]

 

[Nogoodnamesleft]

Robert Benedetto’s book “Making an Archtop Guitar” might be of interest.

 

[Lingwendil]

Those are cool. Nice work. Maybe not for me. I have enough trouble playing in tune with geared timers and frets.

You know, they're surprisingly not too bad. They tune up quick before you play them. Notes are intuitive based on the scale, and you could make marks on the strings with paint until you get the muscle memory down.

I can't play well but it's relaxing and fun.

A common thing guys do for practice versions (violin and banjo too) are modern geared tuners. The geared planetary ones look like regular tuning pegs but have a reduction so that they work in a finer range. That, or bass guitar tuning machines, but they look pretty put of place.