I have a good friend who is a talented musician, drummer, and singer.
He also makes good money on the side as a wedding party DJ.
The best of all worlds.
The guy knows no limits.
Identifying as a musician:
- Thread starter azureglo
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links like Ebay, Amazon, and others.
He also makes good money on the side as a wedding party DJ.
The best of all worlds.
The guy knows no limits.
It doesn’t really matter to me. First everyone is a producer if they buy a DAW. What bothers me is that nobody respects musicianship or the work that we do. There is an arrogance about it all. I work a lot in ableton and I’m very into house music etc. I don’t think being a DJ is easy, at least being a good DJ. This is also a bit arrogant, to dismiss them.Now an attempt to divert from my AI fraud thread that seems to have taken on a life of its own. So my new question now is “Am I a musician just because I say I identify as musician?”
This was triggered by an experience over the weekend when I was at a post show chill party after DJ-ing for 250 graduating students locally. A fellow DJ was asked me where I “got my tracks from” (I’ll explain this later but virtually all DJs download their tracks from a handful of sites).
I pointed out that I don’t download, I make my own from scratch using my DAW, assorted instruments from sax to guitar that I play and various singers , real and AI, easy enough as I'm a professional session musician.
Oh cool, she replied, “ I identify as a musician too”
“So what do play? Do you sing?”
“No I don’t play any instruments and can’t sing but I curate and mix and sometimes I buy rare unheard of records and turn them into mp3s for my sets (“crate digging”), and play them for people so I identify as musician” she cheerily replied.
I waited for the howls of laughter and derision but they didn’t come, just much nodding in approval from the drug and alcohol addled millennials at our booth. So now we have an interesting new idea, if I play some obscure records I bought and transcribed, or a bunch of MP3s I downloaded, on a laptop in a nightclub, I’m a musician?
This doesn’t bode well for the sales of FMIC…
Now don’t get me wrong I like DJ-ing but its hardly difficult, it’s basically some slick software (Rekordbox or Traktor- illiteracy is highly prized by millennials/Gen Z thank you @NewTimerJH ) and a dedicated MIDI controller that does all the heavy lifting. DJs use 2 or 3 sites like Beatport and download their MP3s weekly , then go to sites for matching keys etc ( they have even invented their system of key affinity called “Camelot” rather than learn basic theory) so pretty much every DJ plays the same stuff albeit with different amounts of twiddling on the FX/EQ controls. I learnt to DJ in about 30 minutes on this which cost $300 ( N.B.my own tracks with key/bpm in their names)
Now I like DJ-ing: My take is to create unique themed sets ( e.g 70s string driven Disco) based on 100% originals/self-played reworks of fave tracks and it’s a great workout for my production/writing/playing skills…Plus the money is surreal: I get 50% of the door if the capacity is over 90% full so on my date on Saturday I played a small club that holds 250 , charges £10 on the door for me and 2 support DJ/”Musicians “and it was full by 11:00.
Do the math and you’ll see it beats splitting $300 five ways for playing Sweet Home Alabama at Bubbas Botulism Grill in Downtown Poughkeepsie.. Plus you are surrounded by ecstatic 20 and 30 something who are lot easier on the eye than some of the “maturer” folk at Bubbas..
I did a sanity check and asked 15 or so download/fx button pushing DJs I know through my ferocious agent and all concurred: they are definitely “musicians” as far as they are concerned although none of them can play anything
Anyhoo, it now seems that saying a “I’m musician” makes you a musician even if your only musical skill is breaking wind in D flat… And you wasted all that time learning how to play the solo in Hotel California…
At the end of the day, who cares about how these kids “identify” it’s not what’s important.
Peter Graham
Tele-Meister
But isn't this also what most people do when they make popular music on instruments such as guitars? Take something that has been done a squillion times before (such as I - IV - V chord sequences, verse, verse, chorus, verse, chorus patterns, riffs and solos based on pentatonic scales, lyrics about love gone wrong or ungratified desire etc), add something, take something away, increase the tempo, decrease, the tempo, mix, bang, done?
If that is right - and I think it is - it takes nothing away from the fact that these people are still musicians. They are, after all, making music, which is what musicians do. It might often be regarded on an entirely subjective basis by a listener as horribly derivative music, boring music, old-fashioned music or (insert preferred adjective here) music, but it's still music.
So, by the same token, DJs who are creating their own tracks are also musicians, whether or not it's all knob twiddling and software and irrespective of whether or not they could get a tune out of a kazoo.
One can argue until the cows come home about what makes someone a good musician or a bad musician, but it seems to me that if you make music and your music touches people, you absolutely are a musician.
Heartbreaker_Esq
Friend of Leo's
Anyone familiar with polling, statistics, social science, etc. can tell you that the way a question is framed can show a lot of bias and dramatically skew the results. This is a pretty funny and extreme example. This question is formulated as though this is a real opinion held by real people. But there is no one on earth who thinks Vanilla Ice as good an artist as David Bowie, including Vanilla Ice and his mom. But if you wanted to dismiss and disparage the artistry of hip hop, making Vanilla Ice the avatar and representative for all of hip hop is certainly a quick way to do that.
Lou Tencodpees
Poster Extraordinaire
My guess is that most DJs never really thought about it until the question was posed on social media. It's kind of a loaded question that has an air of exclusion, so naturally debate, gatekeeping, etc. follows. The process is the secret sauce that keeps online banter alive.
kilroy6262
Tele-Meister
Just change the context....
She said "“No I don’t have a medical degree or license and can’t create medicines but I curate them in my cabinet and sometimes I buy medicines and give them to people with aches and pains so I identify as physician”
Or, "“No I don’t paint and can’t sculpt but I curate and display and sometimes I buy rare unheard of paintings and hang them on my walls and show them to people so I identify as an artist”
She is not a musician at all and you are barely a fringe musician. As you said yourself, "but it's hardly difficult, it’s basically some slick software and a dedicated MIDI controller that does all the heavy lifting". Where is the hard work, the dedication, the years of practice that you need to commit to learning a musical instrument? Where are the calluses, the blisters, the aching backs from standing for 3 hours with 8 lbs of wood hanging from your neck or sitting behind a drum set? The hours spent learning licks from your favorite musicians? Where's the art in putting together a piece of music whose sole intention is to provide a pounding "oontz" on every beat while molly-addled dancers wait for "the bass to drop"? What you do is important and valuable because people need to have a good time, but that doesn't make you a musician any more than painting your living room makes you an artist. Go to a band practice after they've been working for 2 hours and declare yourself a musician to them and "wait for the howls of laughter and derision". They won't come because most of us are too polite, but after you leave....
She said "“No I don’t have a medical degree or license and can’t create medicines but I curate them in my cabinet and sometimes I buy medicines and give them to people with aches and pains so I identify as physician”
Or, "“No I don’t paint and can’t sculpt but I curate and display and sometimes I buy rare unheard of paintings and hang them on my walls and show them to people so I identify as an artist”
She is not a musician at all and you are barely a fringe musician. As you said yourself, "but it's hardly difficult, it’s basically some slick software and a dedicated MIDI controller that does all the heavy lifting". Where is the hard work, the dedication, the years of practice that you need to commit to learning a musical instrument? Where are the calluses, the blisters, the aching backs from standing for 3 hours with 8 lbs of wood hanging from your neck or sitting behind a drum set? The hours spent learning licks from your favorite musicians? Where's the art in putting together a piece of music whose sole intention is to provide a pounding "oontz" on every beat while molly-addled dancers wait for "the bass to drop"? What you do is important and valuable because people need to have a good time, but that doesn't make you a musician any more than painting your living room makes you an artist. Go to a band practice after they've been working for 2 hours and declare yourself a musician to them and "wait for the howls of laughter and derision". They won't come because most of us are too polite, but after you leave....
tomprincipato
TDPRI Member
Even if you Do have an audience, that doesn't mean you're a musician.
Highway 49
Friend of Leo's
I guess the purpose of this thread is to keep cantankerous old guys busy, and make sure they don’t do anything dangerous, like use a lawnmower or vote… but really, the world has moved on and we’re arguing over ideas that are decades, even a century old.
Take a look at Richard Prince for an example outside of music - once you’ve moved beyond the obvious criticisms, there’s something going on that’s intelligent, experimental, beautiful…
www.metmuseum.org
Take a look at Richard Prince for an example outside of music - once you’ve moved beyond the obvious criticisms, there’s something going on that’s intelligent, experimental, beautiful…
Richard Prince - Untitled (cowboy) - The Metropolitan Museum of Art
www.metmuseum.org Last edited:
Linkslover
Tele-Holic
I would say that a "musician" is someone who makes music. Nowhere in the definition of "makes" is there any limitation on how the "making" is done.
Now, that leads us next to have to define what is "music?"
I play guitar and I sing. I've even written a blues song which potential embarrassment prevents me from naming.
But, just because I can produce noises, whether or not that is "music," i think, must be left up to the listener to decide. (If you've ever heard me then you'll understand what i mean. )
So, even though I use several of the tools used to "make music" that doesn't mean I've succeeded in doing so.
So, I'll let someone else decide if I'm a musician.
LL
Now, that leads us next to have to define what is "music?"
I play guitar and I sing. I've even written a blues song which potential embarrassment prevents me from naming.
But, just because I can produce noises, whether or not that is "music," i think, must be left up to the listener to decide. (If you've ever heard me then you'll understand what i mean. )
So, even though I use several of the tools used to "make music" that doesn't mean I've succeeded in doing so.
So, I'll let someone else decide if I'm a musician.
LL
Wharfcreek
Tele-Meister
I think this got WAY over-complicated! A 'DJ' spins records.... originally on the radio and given that handle prior to what we now refer to as 'Media Personalities' or Radio Hosts! And, this got further complicated when we broadened the definition of 'music' like the inclusion of RAP! Frankly, things have (imho) gotten so 'muddy' that guys banging on garbage can lids and plastic Home Depot buckets can now qualify as 'musicians'.
As I see it, the line between being a musician and 'not' a musician is a function of the creation of the content! If all you do..... which may be massive and demanding... is cut, splice, mix, and modify other people's stuff... then you're more of a production engineer than a musician. Is the guy running the PA a 'musician'... or a 'technician'? I'd say he (she) is the latter.
I'm an 'old guy' now. I remember my parents telling me that the Beetles, Rolling Stones, and Iron Butterfly was NOT music. I also know I told my kids that RAP was NOT music. I'm also an American.... so lets also remember that aside from the historical changes that music has under-gone here in ghe USA, there are other cultural aspects to consider as well. I just think to be a musician you actually have to 'play' something creatively... even if you do it badly!
As I see it, the line between being a musician and 'not' a musician is a function of the creation of the content! If all you do..... which may be massive and demanding... is cut, splice, mix, and modify other people's stuff... then you're more of a production engineer than a musician. Is the guy running the PA a 'musician'... or a 'technician'? I'd say he (she) is the latter.
I'm an 'old guy' now. I remember my parents telling me that the Beetles, Rolling Stones, and Iron Butterfly was NOT music. I also know I told my kids that RAP was NOT music. I'm also an American.... so lets also remember that aside from the historical changes that music has under-gone here in ghe USA, there are other cultural aspects to consider as well. I just think to be a musician you actually have to 'play' something creatively... even if you do it badly!
buster poser
Doctor of Teleocity
Many if not most of the popular "DJs" today (the kinds who play big festivals etc) produce their own music too. Acts like Deadmau5, Armin Van Buuren, Rezz, no end of them. When they perform... yeah, it's a Pioneer deck and a laptop, but just because someone isn't playing an instrument on stage doesn't mean they can't. I think we've all heard of this guy called Prince.
sadfield
Tele-Afflicted
Well this fails spectacularly. The legality of the medical license is there to prevent the scenario. So she can identify as a musician until an instrument license is required.
The second example could be considered interior design, which is the art of making the inside of a building aesthetically pleasing.
msalama
Poster Extraordinaire
And they say even dafter shyte during their degenerative years, I've noticed.
Anyway, I was a full-time recording engineer, radio sound mixer and sidejob session guitarist for twelve-odd years during the '80s and '90s myself, but cannot remember distinctly "identifying" as anything particular since I was too busy working. And why the hell should've I? It was mostly before the Internet and identity matters weren't yet fashionable, we just did stuff and some of us even managed to earn a living doing it. Yup, did some good money playing, recording and mixing album tracks, singles, radio ads, radio shows, jingles, live gigs and whatnot for a while there! Then completely burnt out on it all later, but that's a different story...
Also, did some DJ gigs as a member of a dub crew later, we ran a moderately successful club with a bit of a following for a couple of years there. All manual of course, with two SL1200s, a wee outboard rack, a mic and a cueable double decker Denon CD, so you either did the mixes, cue-ups, scratches and tempo matches yourself, or got booed out the box. And that stuff isn't easy! You had to be a nimble bastid with the turntables, FX and the mixer if you wanted to stay in the flow, so I dunno, identify as whatever you want, but do it old skool if you want to earn some respect!
LOSTVENTURE
Friend of Leo's
Way too much over-thinking here.
The thought that making any form of music makes you a musician has been reduced to: A DJ producing music for others to listen to is the equivalent of anybody turning on the car radio. So we've broadened the definition to include virtually everybody.
That clarified, my 66 years playing guitar makes me no more of a musician that the kid next door banging his head on his steering wheel listening to some Latina rap at 75 decibels.
True ???
The thought that making any form of music makes you a musician has been reduced to: A DJ producing music for others to listen to is the equivalent of anybody turning on the car radio. So we've broadened the definition to include virtually everybody.
That clarified, my 66 years playing guitar makes me no more of a musician that the kid next door banging his head on his steering wheel listening to some Latina rap at 75 decibels.
True ???
sadfield
Tele-Afflicted
True.
Now we're getting to the nub of why the thread was raised. Bitterness, resentment of others being in the same space without having the same journey.
Now we're getting to the nub of why the thread was raised. Bitterness, resentment of others being in the same space without having the same journey.
SBremner
TDPRI Member
My thoughts are that if you want to call yourself a musician, that means you can make music instantaneously on a musical instrument. For instance, most of us here can pick up a guitar and play something, or why else would we be at TDPRI? However, if you want to "identify" as a musician, go ahead. There are levels of musicianship of course, as we spend our lives trying to get better, even if not professional. I made my living as a screenprinter, owned my own shop for 32 years before selling and retiring, not caring much for the business end of music, though I played in plenty of bands. I have always kept playing and studying, because at the end of the day, it's how I leave the world behind.
msalama
Poster Extraordinaire
If you do the beats, samples, effects / synth patches & design and the programming yourself, yeah, pretty much, because some of that stuff is WAY harder than most folks understand. And I know this from experience, since we did a vinyl LP with the dub crew for a small indie label back then, and I was the engineer, guitarist and programmer responsible.
PS. Was Edgar Froese a musician, since pretty much all he did was synth sequencing and knob twiddling?
toanhunter
Tele-Meister
I stopped telling people I'm a musician in my late 20s, peoples responses piss me off so much that I'd rather not tell them at all.
