I Wanna '52 Reissue, But Which One?

Discussion in 'Telecaster Discussion Forum' started by Texicaster, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. Texicaster

    Texicaster Tele-Holic

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    ¡Bueno!

    I think I just need reassurance if I've got it right.

    I'm kinda after a '52 "pure vintage" 2012-2017 as it has the 7.25" radius.

    Aside form that are most other years very similar?

    I've seen some older ones with pumpkin orange necks and not sure how I feel about those...

    And the Am. Originals are basically PV with 9.5" radius....

    I thought I read somewhere the finish changed on the AO too... a poly undercoat... dunno off hand...

    Bummer there are none locally so I'll have to buy online so want to make sure I at least avoid any clunkers years or years that some oddity...

    So again the 2012-2017 the most faithful to the original 1952 design right?

    TEX
     
  2. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

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    All 52 Reissue guitars join all earlier Fender guitars of all eras including current in having pore filler and/or sealer. it was a very poisonous stuff that dried and was impervious to thinners. In later years it's a thick poly-u that seals and fills pores in one hit.

    In the old days they sealed, sanded and pore filled with a substance like slip clay with fine sand in it. Fullerplast came to be used early 60s to dip bodies - it again just plugs the pores, because it's cheaper than appearance coats like colour and clear - more expensive X 10 so they try to minimise them.

    Then they shot a sealing coat of nitro, then colour coats.

    The first American Vintage Teles came along they got the one shot surfacer/sealer and colour coats common to standard product except the top coat was nitro with polymers, which were trying to simulate an aged guitar. When new, 1952s would have been about the shade of the TDPRI homepage with pale necks. Like this pic of Don Rich's 50's in about 1962.

    images (45).jpeg

    Guys complained about Punkin'casters with thick paint finish, so Fender brought out the 12-17s. With a thinner poly undercoat and flash topcoat and less tint on the neck.

    Guys then complained the new ones didn't look aged enough, and the bodies relicc'd up too fast :rolleyes:


    So you got the PVs. They're a bit halfway still with thin paint. Even though every Fender ever has had pore filler and sealer the myth that 5 lb of solid wood 'breathes' has persisted.

    In terms of playing, the PVs with flatter radius and thicker frets are closer to a modern to play.

    Soundwise, they're not identical but I've played the 97+, pre-12 and post-12 Vintage and OVs and the difference in playing and sound is minimal when the switching is in the modern format. There's more in the string age IMO.

    The second gen pickups with alnico 3 are slightly smokier and maybe less distinct but they're almost peas in a pod.

    The good thing with all models of 52 is they're consistent, good guitars and a great value.

    They've been making them 35 years. The earliest in good condition are now appreciating as collectibles.

    I would buy any era - appearance/tint, condition and originality being the primary consideration over year.

    My friend's partner and I just bought this 06 for his upcoming 50th.

    It's light, resonant and Spanky. Hardy to conceive a better one. Yes the finish is thicker than an OV. But - shiny and from ten feet no-one can tell.
    IMG_20190520_153737.jpg
     

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    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  3. Andoris

    Andoris Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    This is not correct. There is 0 poly undercoat on the 2012-2017's. Just like there isn't on the Wildwood Thin Skins. There is however on the pre 2012 AV's and the AO's and Jimmy Page Signature. I had a 2016 52 and now have a 2013 58, played tons of AO's and 1 JP, the polly vs non poly uncercoat is noticeably different. There is also 0 tint to the necks on the 2012-2017's.


    Not saying one is better than the other. Comes down to if you want your guitar's finish to wear faster or be more durable.
     
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  4. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

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    It IS correct. There is still finish under the topcoat including the Wildwood. Over on the Fender discussion page a Fender employee answered this question. There's nitro, and there's nitro. Fender nitro paint has extenders (flows better, dries thinner) polymers (maintains film strength) and catalysts (dries hard, polishes easier). No-one is making old nitro like Du Pont lacquer. It may have the same shade, it doesn't have the same composition.

    It's thinner and of a different composition but it's there. I will try and find the quote. Anyone who's spayed ash or pine or any open pore timber will tell you - paint sinks in like orange peel. You can out three, four layers on sanding between and you'll still end up with 1/16th of thickness before it stops sinking.

    Topcoat is expensive. Undercoat less so but the both cost a lot more than sanding sealer. If you don't seal and fill you shoot lots more topcoat which is expensive and time consuming. Boutique builders work that way - that's their selling point. Mass producers do not.

    Fender since Leo days sealed and pore filled every ash body, and sealed every alder body to save paint. I will.look for the quote regarding the post-12 guitars.



    Wichita, KS USA

    It's all gravy from here on...

    Jul 29th, 2013 07:37 AM Edit Profile
    From The Fender website:


    "Flash-Coat Lacquer" Finish

    The finishes on most new American Vintage guitars and basses consist of three coats: sealer, color and a topcoat, all of which are 100-percent nitrocellulose lacquer and are hence quite thin. This is a vintage-style finish treatment that lets an instrument "breathe" with a more natural resonance since it doesn't "constrain" the instrument's body as much as thicker and more confining modern finishes.

    The term flash-coat lacquer refers specifically to the quickly applied thin and final "flash" of topcoat lacquer applied to most new American Vintage instruments. In addition to the sonic advantage noted above, the composition of and method of application for this final finish layer imparts a more authentically vintage appearance to these new instruments.

    Now
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  5. Andoris

    Andoris Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    Of course theres sealer and grain filler but it is not poly based on the 2012-2017 or Thin Skins. I've had this confirmed over the phone by Fender and by Wildwood. If you pickup an AO 52 and a 2017 PV, there is big big difference in the finish as well.
     
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  6. Andoris

    Andoris Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    An interesting aside, when I spoke with Wild Wood, they stated that their Thin Skins finish was slightly thicker than the Flash Coat lacquer.

    I also believe (0 evidence or research or proof to back this up) that the later PV's have a more durable finish. My 2016 52 never had chipping issues, whereas my 2013 has been chipping( bought both new, equally careful bedroom playing with both).
     
  7. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

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    Neither of your guitars will chequer like an old one - because of the POLYmers - which elasticisize the finish, that also counts for their impact resistance.

    More- as in more than one component. New Gibsons don't chequer. New PRS don't chequer. The reason why is because the 'nitro' they use isn't the same as the old.

    PRS is the most honest - they just claim their finishes are 'vintage type VOC' which means there is some volatile organic compounds (nitro like substance). But it's got plenty of hardner and it's thick. Ditto Gibson.

    When does 'nitro' cease being nitro? Poly can be polyeurathane, polyester like 70s, or polymer (short chain hydrocarbon) for specific purposes.

    People like the idea of nitro because 'Leo used it'. But Leo only used it for cheapness and availability because of the auto industry. When they went acrylic late 50s so did he. Lucite which is virtually every colour including Olympic White post-60 is acrylic. Still compatible with nitrocellulose clear because they both use acetone as a thinner.

    Finally went all poly late 60s - like cars again.

    And really - what's the difference if your sealer is nitro, poly or superglue? It's purpose is the same. To seal the surface and smooth it for the appearance coat, which means remove all porosity and fill to smooth. A certain thickness back to surface is unavoidable.



    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  8. T Prior

    T Prior Poster Extraordinaire

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    well not sure what the deal is , I have an 88 and an 89, both are 7.25 radius with the same slick profile. Its my understanding ALL 52RI's are 7.25 neck radius but actual profiles may vary. I can't speak to specific finishes or extended 52RI models regarding finishes or neck profiles , but the original series , 80's at least thru the early 90's, were very similar if not the same When they started adding AV , PV or other nomenclature, I left the building with paying spec attention.


    Kinda silly, original 52RI, American Vintage 52RI and a Pure Vintage 52RI .

    Which one is a 52 RI and why are the others NOT a 52 RI ?

    That must have been one heck of a Board Meeting...:)

    "We need a new improved 52 RI which is the same as the initial 52 RI which is close but not actually the same as an original 1952 Tele"

    " Huh...what did he say " ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  9. RadioFM74

    RadioFM74 Tele-Afflicted

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    I’ve been on the same hunt and I really went to town with the details. Here’s the skinny as to the similarities and differences (NB: my experience of the 1998-2011 is limited to guitars made in the 2010s and may not be 100% accurate for earlier ones):
    - The 2012-2017 has a slightly bigger “U" neck profile. The 1998-2011 have what I would call a big “C” profile (way bigger than modern “C”, and bigger than the “60s C” you find on Classic 60s and Baja 60s). Anyway, both do have a large neck, 7’25’’ and vintage fret-wire.
    - The 1998-2012 has a more transparent butterscotch finish (you see the grain) whereas the 2012-2017 has a paler and more opaque finish. I leave the technical discussion on poly/nitro undercoats in more competent hands, but personally find it of no consequences. As to necks, 1998-2012 is more tinted than 2012-2017, which is very pale. See picture below for example of the old series (notice the widely spaced dots… some of the very last have them and the owners try to sell them as newer ones)
    - The pickups are essentially the same (but NNB: some of the older series still have the vintage wiring… so if you hear a weird, muffled sound on the front position of the pickup selector, don’t be put off… rewiring is super-easy and cheap).
    - There are microscopic differences in trim and hardware for maniacs (e.g. the “recessed" switch tip is slightly more “accurate” on the newer 52)
    - used 1998-2012s tend to cost quite a bit less than used 2012-2017.

    There is quite a bit of hype as to how much “better” the “Pure Vintage” newer ones are, and when I started the hunt I was dead set on getting one. It turned out after a few A/Bs that I preferred the neck and finish on the older ones, that they sounded exactly the same, and that the older ones could be found at about 3/5 of the price of newer ones. So I went with a beautiful, well-used 2011 which I totally love. No pumpkins here… a lovely amber tint :p

    My suggestion would be: go out and try a few so you can make up your own mind. They are ubiquitous, so it should be easy. The NECK is the only important difference in play and feel. Your eyes will tell you which one looks better to you.

    Amber and Sheryl2.jpg
     
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  10. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

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    The new PV which the 58 and 64 are part of are 9.5" radius. Otherwise, not much difference.
     
  11. RadioFM74

    RadioFM74 Tele-Afflicted

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  12. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

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  13. teleplayr

    teleplayr Tele-Holic

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    I have a 2000 AVRI, a very nice and decent guitar.

    As far as the finish, neck shape, ect.....

    Fender will probably never get it to the point where Tele fanatics will ever be satisfied.

    Just buy the one that speaks to you and play the snot out of it.
     
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  14. T Prior

    T Prior Poster Extraordinaire

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    PV, AVRI, AO...

    "two twenty, two twenty one, whatever it takes " !

    I don't think we can be saved from ourselves ! :)
     
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  15. John C

    John C Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    Only one point to add - the last version ("Pure Vintage"/American Vintage/AV) came out in mid-August 2012; the prior generation (American Vintage Reissue/AVRI) ran from roughly June 1998-July 2012, and the original series ran from introduction in 1982 until the June 1998 change.

    The first version was more about Fender capturing the vibe of the originals - despite their marketing hype they were just closer to pre-CBS than anything that had been made since the early CBS years (say 1965-66). For example, all 3 models ('52 Tele, '57 Strat and '62 Strat) all had the same "slim-shoulder C" neck - which is actually David Gilmour's favorite neck; Fender copied one from a 1984 '57 Reissue Strat for his Custom Shop signature Strat.

    The 1998 revision gets closer to vintage specs, and the 2012 even closer. I really won't hazard a guess as to how close they were, but because of the neck shapes it was a significant jump between the originals and the 1998 revisions. The jump in accuracy between the 1998 revisions and the 2012 revisions was smaller, but it was more of "the devil is in the details" as they got a lot of small details closer and the 1998 revisions were pretty good.

    Also Fender was reworking the Custom Shop lineup - their so-called "Time Machine" series had gotten the modern radius and larger frets, so Fender was positioning the 2012 revision AV series as the "replacement" for an NOS (New Old Stock or "not relic") finish Time Machine series. Note that except for the '52 Tele some of the other models ('64 Tele, '56 Strat, '65 Strat) were formerly Custom Shop models.
     
  16. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    They’re all good guitars.

    Spec is just that. The individual units vary.

    You can’t predict which unit will speak to you through a bunch of navel gazing about which chemical composition does or does not sit UNDER the finish you actually touch. Or which pickups smoke more.

    If you have to order, it’s a crapshoot whether the one that arrives will speak to you.

    Regardless of which supposed “era” of AV/PV you pick, or AO if you go that route.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  17. Lobomov

    Lobomov Friend of Leo's

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    I really don't like the neck on the 2012-17 PV ... It's great if you just strum chords, but other wise for me it too unwieldy
     
  18. AxemanVR

    AxemanVR Tele-Afflicted Ad Free Member

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    I pretty much agree with this overall assessment...

    Each era of ‘52 Reissue manages to reach a minimum threshold of quality as far as I can tell, so, like any guitar series of similar build, it’s probably safe to say that most ‘52 RIs of any given batch are generally considered to be adequately “good” with a few being perhaps “exceptionally good” or better.

    But, like @MilwMark pointed out, it can be a bit of a crap shoot if you’re looking for your “holy grail”. I’ve owned and played several (from the late 90s to fairly recently) but none has quite matched the delicious tone of my 2003 Fender ‘52 AVRI yet:

    AEA89775-0C24-4E62-8364-6B2E6F2E3A9F.jpeg

    That said, I’m also reasonably confident that most are more than worthy of your consideration...


     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  19. guitartwonk

    guitartwonk Tele-Meister

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    I dunno but it better be butterscotch blonde.

    For the tone, y'understand...



    Sent from my Phone using Tapatalk
     
  20. Texicaster

    Texicaster Tele-Holic

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    OK...

    This has gone on long enough....:D

    I've actually been shopping for a few months and finding either over priced or dinged up abused. Guys were lying about damage when we met face to face so buying used a risk..

    Actually had found and bought a NOS '52 PV off GC! Called and said in stock. Got confirmation of sale... then nothing... called the day it was supposed to arrive at local store and it had not shipped! They said of the supposed 6 they had in reality only 1 and dinged up so the store that had it wouldn't ship it. No case either! Didn't even bother to contact me!! I tried to bargain a break on it... go ahead and ship it locally and I'll check it out and if not too bad I'll buy. The $1600 price WAS the discount for a beat up '52 with no case! LOL!

    Anyways.... pulled the trigger on a Wildwood Guitars Fender American Vintage Thin Skin Roasted 1952 Telecaster! Nailed it on the specs I like and tone wise a safe bet... I'll find out tomorrow!

    :D !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    TEX
     
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