I think I understand the tonemaster amp thing now

[11 Gauge]

I'm pretty sure they're hardwired on the other end inside the chassis, there isn't a speaker jack like on a tube model.

I'm not sure, but I remember some discussion about Fender being weird about the warranty thing on these when you change speakers.

Yeah, they're hardwired at the chassis end, which is fairly par for the course with SS combo amps.

I could see Fender denying warranty coverage if someone swapped speakers with something with an incorrect impedance, but that's not unique to the Tonemaster amps.

It looks like the N12K comes in both 8 ohms and 16 ohms. So just choose replacements that match whatever yours has, and there should be no issue.

Besides, the blonde TM DRs & TRs use Celestion Neo G12 Creambacks instead of N12Ks. There's nothing proprietary/unique about these neo speakers that makes them specific to use with the TM amps - they were primarily only chosen because they are lighter weight.

 

[TwangerWannabe]

I do believe I was banned from this very forum, for a few weeks, or so, for talking bad about the tone master amp, and the engineering inside it, when it was first released, I find this thread pretty darn funny…… when fender first puts something new out, you better like it, and not make waves, or else……no matter how it sounds, how it’s built, or especially how it is engineered.

not a fan of these amps, from day one, and still am not. On many levels.
glad to see at least this can be discussed now…sanely.

Lets be real here...I'm sure that you didn't get banned for not liking the amp. Would be interesting to see the post(s) that got you banned. Whenever I've been banned it's because I crossed the line and probably said something disparaging about someone, not about the product.

 

[TwangerWannabe]

Yeah, they're hardwired at the chassis end, which is fairly par for the course with SS combo amps.

I could see Fender denying warranty coverage if someone swapped speakers with something with an incorrect impedance, but that's not unique to the Tonemaster amps.

It looks like the N12K comes in both 8 ohms and 16 ohms. So just choose replacements that match whatever yours has, and there should be no issue.

Besides, the blonde TM DRs & TRs use Celestion Neo G12 Creambacks instead of N12Ks. There's nothing proprietary/unique about these neo speakers that makes them specific to use with the TM amps - they were primarily only chosen because they are lighter weight.

I thought this specific Jensen Neo speaker was created by Jensen at the request of Fender specifically for the TMDR.

 

[Chipss36]

Lets be real here...I'm sure that you didn't get banned for not liking the amp. Would be interesting to see the post(s) that got you banned. Whenever I've been banned it's because I crossed the line and probably said something disparaging about someone, not about the product.

I being very real, and exactly what I said did I did in fact happen…it was never personal, my discipline, and my angle is engineering, that made people mad. I was and still am technically correct in everything I stated.

it’s happening now, say something bad about fenders soon to be released vintage line, and watch how people get upset. It’s a thing.

 

[TwangerWannabe]

I being very real, and exactly what I said did I did in fact happen…

...in your mind.

 

[11 Gauge]

I thought this specific Jensen Neo speaker was created by Jensen at the request of Fender specifically for the TMDR.

I think it was done in an effort to have a speaker that 'completed the look', so that the TMs look as similar to the old BF amps as possible, and utilize neo instead of ceramic, to reduce the speaker's weight as much as possible.

To that end, the N12K looks to be a C12K with a neo magnet - voice coil, cone, basket, etc. are probably all C12K parts.

...Or, if there are indeed other parts of the N12K that are different, I'd think Fender probably simply requested that Jensen make it sound as similar to the C12K as possible, with the same power rating. After all, Fender had to use preexisting speakers for the TM R&D, right? Might as well do that with the speakers used in the RIs.

 

[TwangerWannabe]

I think it was done in an effort to have a speaker that 'completed the look', so that the TMs look as similar to the old BF amps as possible, and utilize neo instead of ceramic, to reduce the speaker's weight as much as possible.

To that end, the N12K looks to be a C12K with a neo magnet - voice coil, cone, basket, etc. are probably all C12K parts.

...Or, if there are indeed other parts of the N12K that are different, I'd think Fender probably simply requested that Jensen make it sound as similar to the C12K as possible, with the same power rating. After all, Fender had to use preexisting speakers for the TM R&D, right? Might as well do that with the speakers used in the RIs.

Isn't that essentially what I said above?!

They partnered with Jensen to get a lighter speaker that had as close to the same frequency response to the speaker that was in the DRRI. I think it was more about replicating the way the speaker behaves and trying to match it and less about aesthetics.

 

[11 Gauge]

Isn't that essentially what I said above?!

They partnered with Jensen to get a lighter speaker that had as close to the same frequency response to the speaker that was in the DRRI. I think it was more about replicating the way the speaker behaves and trying to match it and less about aesthetics.

I think aesthetics was as important as it sounding similar to the C12K. Otherwise Jensen could have just provided something that looks like their Tornado Classic 100.

If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if the N12K is a Tornado Classic 100 with a C12K cone & dust cap.

The voice coil diameter, winding depth, and magnetic gap depth are identical for all three speakers.

Edited to add - Jensen themselves say that the N12K has the same magnet as is found in the Tornado series.

 

[MilwMark]

I just poked around online to chase the specs of the Jensens involved -- the C12K and the N12K.

The specs are similar overall. There's a few minor differences, but the overall responses curves are very similar and most the rest of the parameters are pretty close. The ceramic is about +2db greater than the neo counterpart however.

C12K

C12K | Jensen Loudspeakers

While not strictly a vintage reissue, the C12K is the first design that Jensen developed in the early ‘90s. It is tonally inspired by the classic vintage ceramic Jensen, but with a substantially stronger voice, full bass and smooth top end. The C12K became one of the speakers of choice for...

www.jensentone.com

N12K

N12K | Jensen Loudspeakers

The N12K was developed in conjunction with Fender® as the speaker for the new Fender® Tone Masterä Deluxe Reverb® and Twin Reverb®. It delivers the closest sound, character and dynamic feel of the classic Jensen C12K with half the weight, thanks to the exclusive Jensen Neodymium magnet design...

www.jensentone.com

The DRRI comes stock with the C12N, doesn’t it? Essentially the same sensitivity as the NK12.

C12N | Jensen Loudspeakers

The C12N is one of the most important speakers in Jensen’s history. It is the top 12” speaker of the ‘Blackface Era, used by many American manufacturers in the mid ‘60s for their upper range models when the price of AlNiCo became unsustainable for the manufacturers. Clear highs, solid mids, and...

www.jensentone.com

 

[TwangerWannabe]

I think aesthetics was as important as it sounding similar to the C12K. Otherwise Jensen could have just provided something that looks like their Tornado Classic 100.

If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if the N12K is a Tornado Classic 100 with a C12K cone & dust cap.

The voice coil diameter, winding depth, and magnetic gap depth are identical for all three speakers.

Edited to add - Jensen themselves say that the N12K has the same magnet as is found in the Tornado series.

If they cared that much about aesthetics how do you explain a Celestion in the other TMDR?

 

[MilwMark]

If they cared that much about aesthetics how do you explain a Celestion in the other TMDR?

Did the Tonemaster amps take yer lunch money or something?

 

[TwangerWannabe]

Did the Tonemaster amps take yer lunch money or something?

Not sure what that is supposed to mean. I own a TMDR and really like it. Have no complaints about it whatsoever. Was simply responding to a statement made by another poster who suggested that Fender chose the speaker they did simply because it looked the part aesthetically when compared to the speaker used in the DRRI’s. My point was if aesthetics was Fender’s main motivation in speaker choice why did they choose the Celestion for the other TMDR when it looks nothing like a Jensen.

 

[PhredE]

The DRRI comes stock with the C12N, doesn’t it? Essentially the same sensitivity as the NK12.

C12N | Jensen Loudspeakers

The C12N is one of the most important speakers in Jensen’s history. It is the top 12” speaker of the ‘Blackface Era, used by many American manufacturers in the mid ‘60s for their upper range models when the price of AlNiCo became unsustainable for the manufacturers. Clear highs, solid mids, and...

www.jensentone.com

Could be my mistake -- I looked up the specs on the first one I found advertised (Sweetwater).
I *think* this what I looked up at the time --

Fender '65 Deluxe Reverb 1x12" 22-watt Tube Combo Amp - Black

22-watt 2-channel All-tube Guitar Combo Amplifier with Tube Reverb and Vibrato - Black

www.sweetwater.com

I'll poke around more to double check though, thanks. I know that Fender has included a variety of different drivers over the recent years in different variations..

 

[11 Gauge]

The DRRI comes stock with the C12N, doesn’t it? Essentially the same sensitivity as the NK12.

C12N | Jensen Loudspeakers

The C12N is one of the most important speakers in Jensen’s history. It is the top 12” speaker of the ‘Blackface Era, used by many American manufacturers in the mid ‘60s for their upper range models when the price of AlNiCo became unsustainable for the manufacturers. Clear highs, solid mids, and...

www.jensentone.com

No, the DRRI comes stock with the C12K. The K has a bigger voice coil than the N, and a higher power rating. Because of the differences in construction, the C12K will sound different from the C12N, and so it also goes for the C12Q and C12R.

The BF TM comes with a N12K, which is really either of the following:

- a Tornado Classic 100 with a C12K cone

- a C12K with a Tornado Classic 100 magnet

...All three of those Jensen speakers have the same basket and voice coil. Since the Tornado Classic 100 is supposed to sound like an alnico speaker (per Jensen), it may have a different spider than the other two, to go with its different cone.

-----------------

I think the biggest challenge for Jensen (and Celestion and others) was getting a neo magnet that allowed for performance that's similar to ceramic or alnico.

Anyway, in the case of this joint venture between Fender and Jensen, I don't think there was a ton of R&D there like we're all guessing there was, or might be implied in the marketing/advertising. I really wouldn't be surprised if the N12K is just a combination of Tornado Classic 100 and C12K, and Jensen pretty much admits to it.

 

[11 Gauge]

If they cared that much about aesthetics how do you explain a Celestion in the other TMDR?

They're going for a different vibe with the blonde model. Folks who've A/B'ed both have said they sound different.

 

[TwangerWannabe]

No, the DRRI comes stock with the C12K. The K has a bigger voice coil than the N, and a higher power rating. Because of the differences in construction, the C12K will sound different from the C12N, and so it also goes for the C12Q and C12R.

The BF TM comes with a N12K, which is really either of the following:

- a Tornado Classic 100 with a C12K cone

- a C12K with a Tornado Classic 100 magnet

...All three of those Jensen speakers have the same basket and voice coil. Since the Tornado Classic 100 is supposed to sound like an alnico speaker (per Jensen), it may have a different spider than the other two, to go with its different cone.

-----------------

I think the biggest challenge for Jensen (and Celestion and others) was getting a neo magnet that allowed for performance that's similar to ceramic or alnico.

Anyway, in the case of this joint venture between Fender and Jensen, I don't think there was a ton of R&D there like we're all guessing there was, or might be implied in the marketing/advertising. I really wouldn't be surprised if the N12K is just a combination of Tornado Classic 100 and C12K, and Jensen pretty much admits to it.

 

[MilwMark]

@11 Gauge and @PhredE - my bad. Mixed up the C12s.

 

[Brent Hutto]

Always refreshing when a whiff of facts drifts across a thread like this.

 

[teletail]

Lets be real here...I'm sure that you didn't get banned for not liking the amp. Would be interesting to see the post(s) that got you banned. Whenever I've been banned it's because I crossed the line and probably said something disparaging about someone, not about the product.

+1

It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. In spite of good moderation, I read some incredibly disrespectful things posted on here about Solid State amps. I’ve found some people completely oblivious regarding how what they say comes across.

 

['64 Tele]

I do believe I was banned from this very forum, for a few weeks, or so, for talking bad about the tone master amp, and the engineering inside it, when it was first released, I find this thread pretty darn funny…… when fender first puts something new out, you better like it, and not make waves, or else……no matter how it sounds, how it’s built, or especially how it is engineered.

not a fan of these amps, from day one, and still am not. On many levels.
glad to see at least this can be discussed now…sanely.

I usually get banned for Covid related comments.....