I quit the band & left the church over this:

Discussion in 'Worship Service Players' started by asatattack, May 18, 2019.

  1. GoldieLocks

    GoldieLocks Tele-Afflicted

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    My Favorite band in the world (with Blackberry Smoke and Gov't Mule and...)

    Derek Trucks only uses ONE of his amps. The other is in case one breaks (and they do!). Or - a guest comes onstage and needs an amp.
    Running into two amps at the same time is not always a good idea. Phase issues and general noise/tone problems. Most of the pros (with all those amps) usually only have one on at a time. They amp switch for different tones and songs. They even cabinet switch as well.

    I'm pretty sure you can't get Derek Trucks cleanish slide tone with a small lesser watt amp. And still be heard over a screaming 12 piece band with two drummers.
     
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  2. mRtINY

    mRtINY Tele-Afflicted

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    Come to All Saints on the last Sunday of each month....
     
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  3. black_doug

    black_doug Tele-Afflicted

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    In the 90s I switched from acoustic and I began playing electric guitar. It was accepted only because the church had decided that the service at 9:30 would be for contemporary worship. If that wasn't your cup of tea you were welcome to come to the 11:00 o'clock service where you would sing hymns with piano and organ accompaniment.

    So yes, culture is the main issue. At least Hillsong and Jesus Culture have helped break down the barriers.

    I don't go to that church anymore but I've never looked back. There's almost always someone who will play acoustic guitar.

    And we've gone to IEMs last fall. I tried going direct for about four months, but recently went back to an amp. It's on a stand facing sideways towards my ear.
     
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  4. Preacher

    Preacher Friend of Leo's

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    So I can speak to this working with churches that average less than 100 and churches who are in the thousands for services. It all comes down to space.

    I played in a small church for a long time, narrow building, maybe 30 feet across and maybe 100 feet deep. It was what I call a "shotgun building". In the sense that if you shot a shot gun from one end of the building to the other everyone would get a pellet or two. We tried everything and our only option was to relegate the amps to storage shed and either mic them from there or go with a DI into the sound system. We had acoustic drums and a high school drummer who had not sense of how to play.
    I have played in a church that averaged about 500, had a little larger stage and a radiused seating area from the stage. Still deal with sound issues but not so much that we can't play with an amp with a shield.
    I have also played with a group whose auditorium will seat 5000 people. We can run acoustic drums without a shield, everyone can play a cranked amp of 30 Watts or less which will have a mic in front of it and the sound engineer does a fabulous job mixing everything in.

    So here is the difference.
    Small Church:
    Worship Leader: usually the pianist or keyboardist who learned to play as a kid and can sing.
    Singers: some who can carry a tune in a bucket, others who have no bucket to carry a tune but they look nice and worship well.
    Musicians - someone who owns an instrument, whether that instrument needs to be played on a song or not is not that important. And tuning, well they tuned last week so it should be good.
    Drummer - usually the high school kid who plays the snare or if you a lucky who plays the tri toms in marching band. He had is own sticks, albeit marching band snare sticks but he can keep a beat, usually. He has no skills to play with dynamics, everything is hit at the same levels for every song and every part. But he can keep a beat, most times.
    Sound Person: usually someone who has no people skills and likes to hide from everyone during the service who volunteered to press buttons. If they have an ear for music, even better but not a deal breaker.

    Large Church
    Worship Leader: usually a pianist or keyboardist who possesses a music degree of some sort. Can play, arrange, sing every part and is a truly gifted musician.
    Singers: some one who had tried out and can carry their part in the arrangement. If you can't carry a tune, the worship pastor or music director kindly gets you in contact with the greeters committee.
    Musicians: Again you must own an instrument and that instrument must be required for that song and you must have some mastery of that instrument. And they expect you to come prepared and ready for rehearsal having learned the part you are to play. And if you don't own a tuner, well you need not apply.
    Drummer: Usually someone who has a career playing in bands or as a teacher. Can play and keep rhythm to all sorts of styles and knows how to play with dynamics and feel. Usually has a band they play with during the week and gives their Sunday to the service.
    Sound Person: someone who knows the acoustic properties of the room and knows their gear. Typically a musician who is on staff and whose job it is to make the music sound good.


    I had a conversation with our Worship Leader last week. She really wants to have acoustic drums on stage (we currently have an electric kit on stage) and I balked at it. I explained the dynamics of the room, how an acoustic set would not let anyone be able to hear within 15 feet of the kit and that our stage was not big enough to support that. I explained that we would have to build a box to put the kit in if we even wanted to address that. She said we had plexi panels for the front which would fix the sound issue. I laughed and could not stop laughing. I asked about microphones for the kit (we don't have any) and I asked who the professional drummer was she was bringing in. She said our current drummers could play acoustic kits and I told her "Yes" and I can get some pots and pans and have them beat on those and it would sound similar. Now I am not saying that our drummers are bad, it is just that to play in that situation on an acoustic set you have to be able to play down to a song and our drummers I feel can not do that. I then gave her the names of three drummers I knew who could pull it off, she told me all of those guys play at the big churches and get paid to play there. I nodded and said, "talent gets paid because they are that good". She will probably try to push the acoustic drums again (they look so cool she said) in the future and I may just have to give in to her. I just know that I will be putting her keyboard right in front of the drum kit when it happens.
     
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  5. GeoB

    GeoB Tele-Holic

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    There's an old Episcopal Church in my County which I go to occasionally because it contains a very old pipe organ. And they have quite an experienced organist playing that very old pipe organ. And it's very nice to go and listen to that on occasion.

    The problem is I have to not go to my church where I play the electric bass in order to go hear this very old pipe organ occasionally.

    I get over to the old Episcopal church with the very old pipe organ maybe once every two or three months. Because I'm a musician. And as a musician I have developed big ears and I listen to just about anything.

    And as a musician I can only take so much I, vi, IV, V chord progressions and permutations thereof. I just gotta hear some J.S.Bach.
     
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  6. black_doug

    black_doug Tele-Afflicted

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    I posted above about trying the DI route since we went to IEMs. Because I really want to try to comply I've tried the two DI boxes I own. One is really designed for an acoustic guitar so it failed to give the tone I want. The other is an ART Tube Channel in a rack. Better tone, more noise.

    So I'm back with low-watt amps on stage facing sideways, aimed up towards my ear.

    One thing I have not tried yet is the DI connection from my Vox Pathfinder. Is anyone doing this, or a similar setup? Is the tone the same as micing the amp?
     
  7. PastorJay

    PastorJay Tele-Afflicted

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    I don't know anything about the Vox Pathfinder. But:

    Last week I played four gigs with an acoustic trio I was in back in the 80s. Reunion Tour. Lots of fun.

    Guitar player insisted on playing through an amp with a DI out to the board. DI out to the board worked. Better at some shows than others. But it can work just fine--need a soundman who knows what to do with it.
     
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  8. Southpaw Tele

    Southpaw Tele Friend of Leo's

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    At our church, the accordion is front and center. Actually, he plays the bass lines and keyboard sounds on it, so it’s good. We have a drummer on a Roland kit and me usually on a Jazzmaster or Tele into a Line 6 Helix LT. The loudest player is therefore the piano player who refuses to shut the top on the grand piano or mic it. Everyone is too afraid of her to argue.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. hotraman

    hotraman Tele-Holic

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    All true and my experience as well!
    Thanks for the details !
     
  10. GeoB

    GeoB Tele-Holic

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  11. GeoB

    GeoB Tele-Holic

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    Kudos on the electric drum set because you can control the volume, and sorry about the grand because you really can't control the volume. An electric keyboard would be much better.

    I used to use a sansamp direct. I plugged into that and then the sansamp plugged into the microphone cable and it went into the system. How nice that sounded and I got three amp sounds and that's really what I use for a effexlcts is amp sounds and maybe a touch of reverb. It sounded great.
     
  12. PastorJay

    PastorJay Tele-Afflicted

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    I'd say we're about halfway in the middle between these two. WL has a degree in Musical Theater Directing. Teaches theater and voice, directs, and acts. Can play piano/keys if needed.

    Most of our singers are pretty good.

    Instrumentalists include people with several years of professional experience and young people getting experience. Drummer just finished freshman year of high school. He has a great teacher who's a friend of mine and is developing a nice touch and sense of when to lay out or back. Paid pianist overplays. Doesn't also know when to back off or out.

    We are again at a point where I don't HAVE TO play all the time to fill out the band.

    We do sometimes get a wall of sound.
     
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  13. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Friend of Leo's

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    I think the problem I have with his article is it assumes that people are there to hear the guitar. I'm a guitar player and I'm convinced that the two things that stand out for the listener are the singer and the bass. The guitar definitely stands out for other guitar players, but not so much for the family sitting next to him in the pews.
     
  14. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Friend of Leo's

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    A parenthetical for PastorJay. I love my 5F1 champ. In church I put a big diaphragm condenser mic off center on the grill and then use a SM58 in the back, aimed down and away at the front corner of the amp. The sound guy mixes those two channels. It sounds pretty amazing, a bit more meat to it, I think. If you ever get curious, give it a try.
     
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  15. studio

    studio Poster Extraordinaire

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    They never know what's really good for them!
     
  16. studio

    studio Poster Extraordinaire

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    That's just mean!
    Drums always sound better when tuned. You don't have to hit them very hard either.
    Percussion including drum kits run the entire spectrum of dynamic range.
    I've seen guys like Billy Cobham play without hitting the drums and still create a feel of sound.
    Whisper quiet.
    Drums are great for all styles of music, however there has to be a musician sitting behind the kit.
    All musicians are students. Some just study more often.
     
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