I Played The Fender Tone Master Amps Today

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Otis Fine, Sep 10, 2019.

  1. Blrfl

    Blrfl Tele-Holic

    Posts:
    797
    Joined:
    May 3, 2018
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    You're only ever playing one model at a time, so it's not as if the DSP has to devote any cycles to any of the others until you flip the switch.
     
  2. TeleTex82

    TeleTex82 Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,489
    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Location:
    San Antone
    I'm not a computer guy so you probably know much more about this stuff than I do, but wouldn't some things have to be running in the background to able to switch things on the fly without any kind of latency or delay? Like being able to switch through presets on the fly with a footswitch for example?
     
  3. burntfrijoles

    burntfrijoles Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    5,728
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Location:
    Somewhere Over The Rainbow
    I don’t know that I’ve ever seen an artist on stage with a Tweed, Blackface, Marshall, Vox and a Mesa with the required switching system to use all of the aforementioned.
     
    OngoGablogian and Marc Morfei like this.
  4. Norris Vulcan

    Norris Vulcan Tele-Holic

    Posts:
    766
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2015
    Location:
    Somerset, UK, Europe
    Wow, popular topic.
    @TeleTex82 you're dead right, this amp is basically a computer - with all the associated hardware for guitar like speakers, etc.
    Like playing through a laptop with a quality amp simulator running on it.
    If it sounds and feels good, what's not to like.
    The huge advantage over tubes is the efficiency and massive power saving. A 21st century amp for our times ?
     
    jbford likes this.
  5. TeleTex82

    TeleTex82 Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,489
    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Location:
    San Antone
    Give Neil Young some time
     
    OngoGablogian likes this.
  6. LeicaBoss

    LeicaBoss Tele-Holic

    Posts:
    685
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Location:
    New Jersey
    In something like this, there is a mix of digital and analog processing. Modelers with a bunch of amp sounds sort of compromise to get a bunch of sounds into a package.

    I actually like the idea of a piece of hardware/software purpose built to do a very specific sound well.
     
  7. tfarny

    tfarny Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,180
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Location:
    Hudson Valley, NY
    Yes, but minimally. Processing power is not an issue. What I think IS an issue is that the sound of an amp is partially created by things other than the circuit. So maybe you COULD have the Deluxe software also loaded in the the Twin version of that amp. And you could switch between them. That would be cool. But what does a Deluxe sound like through a 2x12 in a bigger cab? Maybe it sounds great, but it won't sound exactly like a traditional Deluxe, and then - here come the tube purists with their pitchforks again. By keeping it simple, Fender is making a certain kind of pitch to buyers. They don't care where you stand on the issue of tech, they just want to sell you an amp. If you want everything all in one, with bluetooth and wifi, they'll sell you a Mustang. If you want fully traditional, they've got a handwired bassman for three grand. You want real tubes, but cheap - Hot Rod series or Blues Jr. You basically just want a twin, but with some practical advantages, and don't mind digital? Now they've got that product to sell you.
     
  8. SolidSteak

    SolidSteak Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    2,930
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Location:
    USA
    I am definitely interested in trying one. Is there a reason they don't have more models or options on there? I dunno, but OTOH it seems like they couldn't make this amp without a chip - it would be another Frontman or Sidekick. Those had usable clean sounds, but didn't sound like a Deluxe or Twin at all.

    This whole discussion makes me overthink what's inside the gear I'm playing...
     
    Deathray and Lef T like this.
  9. Recce

    Recce Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    2,629
    Joined:
    May 3, 2016
    Location:
    Northern Alabama
    There are three music stores including a Guitar Center. The Guitar Center doesn’t currently have one in stock. I might be able to find one in Decatur. If not probably in Muscle Shoals. But I am in no hurry. One will eventually arrive in town.
     
  10. Strato50

    Strato50 Tele-Afflicted

    Age:
    52
    Posts:
    1,642
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2017
    Location:
    Port Arthur TX
    See these kind of comments are why no one takes this thread serious. 1000 bucks for a modeling amp that tries to look like a tube amp with no effects loop. I guess that processor couldn’t handle that? Come on Fender you’re trying to please the gaming crowd. What’s next a modeling Tele? Watched some vids of this thing sounds like a solid state amp with the notes dying off. Still has that hard clip. Face it old tubes are musical and not stiff like these amps. Hats off to the marketing dept. they will make a lot of money on what cost a fraction to build. They won’t ever regain that glory they had. They can’t compete with their old gear. But they can build these cheap and make a lot of money. Fender could really make great amps again if they wanted. It reminds me of when the Japanese started kicking their butts and they got desperate. I even fell for that rotary pedal they put out. It was replaced by a 20 Danno rocky road. There a mint Deluxe RI down the street at a pawn shop for 600 I think I will go grab it before they are extinct and two grand. ‍♂️
     
  11. Cerb

    Cerb Tele-Meister

    Age:
    39
    Posts:
    190
    Joined:
    May 3, 2019
    Location:
    Sweden
    The cost would be very low indeed but the loss in sales would be massive. Why sell 3 amps in one for $1000 if you can sell 3 amps for $800 a piece? Granted, not everyone would buy three of them or even two but they would sell fewer units in total if they came as three-in-one.
     
    beyer160 likes this.
  12. Blrfl

    Blrfl Tele-Holic

    Posts:
    797
    Joined:
    May 3, 2018
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    There are a bunch of different ways to go about it, but the short answer is that isn't not really an issue on modern hardware.

    Signal processing is usually done on a separate chip called (drumroll, please) a digital signal processor in a big loop. You get a very tiny bit of audio (called a sample) from the input, do whatever magic you're going to do with it, send the result to the output to be turned into sound and then go back to the beginning and do it all over again. That's how it works if all you have is one model.

    If you have several models and enough memory to hold the loops for all of them at once, the last step at the end of the loop is to check the switch and see if you jump back into the same loop or start running a different one. The extra time to do the check is so small that the processor doesn't even miss a sample. One sample is processed with, say, the Bassman model and the next one is processed with the Plexi model after the switch is flipped. Sometimes it takes a few hundred samples to get a loop "primed" so it works properly, but the time it takes for that is too short for humans to notice.

    It's less practical to do that when you have hundreds of models available, so the DSP has two program slots available which I'll call A and B. The software running the front panel loads the default program (say, Bassman) into the A slot at power-up and and the DSP starts running that. If you decide to change to the AC30 model, the front panel fetches that from the library, dumps it into the B slot and flips the DSP's switch so it runs the next iteration of loop from there. Change again to the Twin Reverb model and it gets loaded into the now-unused slot A and the DSP switches there. Lather, rinse repeat.

    Early digital stuff had a lot latency in switching programs because it didn't have the space for more than one program, so it would have to be stopped while a new program was loaded and started back up. None of it was particularly fast by today's standards, which meant the process took more time.

    Hope that's useful to you.
     
  13. TeleTex82

    TeleTex82 Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,489
    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Location:
    San Antone
    Wow that is incredibly informative! Thank you for that! Does the the sample processed by the DSP include things like sag and touch response etc or is it just sound and those other things are handled elsewhere?
     
  14. -Hawk-

    -Hawk- Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    3,179
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Location:
    IL, USA
    I first came posted to discuss my belief that Fender hasn’t been great when it comes to modeling or supporting modeling products. Looks like they’ve at least improved the former. No doubt that these can sound good - a real cab and speaker go a long way.

    Now I’m just coming for the entertainment.
     
    MilwMark and Blrfl like this.
  15. Mike Eskimo

    Mike Eskimo Telefied Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    20,071
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Location:
    Detroit
    36A9AEEA-34F4-4775-8E76-46E562BBE028.jpeg CB73F3D7-A187-4345-9A9A-12277F6230DE.jpeg Hey, when Fender puts on their thinking caps and really tries to push things forward, good things can happen!
     
  16. raysachs

    raysachs Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    60
    Posts:
    2,289
    Joined:
    May 21, 2017
    Location:
    Near Philly
    Far as I can see, ONE GUY doesn't "take this thread serious". That'd be you. I know from seeing your posts around here that you're not typically a jerk, but on this thread, you're making the same point over and over and over (and over). It's been heard and registered. We know you won't be buying one of these and you don't recommend anyone else does either. Got it.

    But, obviously, a LOT OF people are quite interested in these amps and this thread. I'm not in the market myself because I already have an amp that does the same basic thing in a Roland Blues Cube and it meets my particular needs perfectly. You wanna tell me I'm an idiot for buying one of those too, g'head, it won't bother me a bit. For whatever combination of reasons, neither of these amps meets your wants and/or needs. For whatever DIFFERENT combination of reasons, they obviously WILL meet the wants and/or needs of many others who aren't you.

    You said a few pages back you were done with this thread. I took note, relieved. But you either didn't mean it or forgot. So here's a reminder...
     
  17. Mike Eskimo

    Mike Eskimo Telefied Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    20,071
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Location:
    Detroit
    My bandmate owns a fender stage 1000 DSP amp and it’s like a hot potato within the band .

    he’ll try to leave it at various members houses if we’re taking turns holding practice and we’re all like “ get this thing out of here! It’s too loud and it sounds like crap !” :lol::lol::)

    I’ll scoop one of those Tonemasters up when they’re at Music Go Round for $129...
     
    Scooter91 and beyer160 like this.
  18. cyclopean

    cyclopean Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,665
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Location:
    innsmouth, MA
    i'd be ok with one, but i use a lot of modulation and one and two octave down effects. i'm also in a band with no bassist and i need to pump out a lot of low end.
     
  19. cyclopean

    cyclopean Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,665
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Location:
    innsmouth, MA
    i'm using a 4x10 musicman hd 130. a twin would suit me just fine.
     
    stefanhotrod likes this.
  20. Blrfl

    Blrfl Tele-Holic

    Posts:
    797
    Joined:
    May 3, 2018
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    All of that stuff is sound, and if you're going to have DSP at all, you'd have to be nuts to do it anywhere else.

    Previous attempts at making analog, solid-state hardware sound like tubes didn't work because it's hard to do it well when you're working with components that don't want to behave like tubes. Software removes that limitation. If you have an understanding of how a component behaves, you can turn it into a program. The simplest DSP program would be taking a sample to the input, doing nothing with it and sending it to the output. That's a pretty accurate model of a wire. :) If you take a sample, store it away somewhere for awhile and spit it out some time later, you've modeled a delay. If you take a sample and spit it out at less volume at a bunch of points in the future, you've modeled a reverb. When you start to understand how tubes behave, you can start modeling them, too. The better your understanding, the better the program and the better the results.

    I wrote a review of the Blues Cube Artist last year that discusses a little bit about sag specifically that you might find informative. (NB: My blog is just a place for me to write stuff; I don't make money on it, so you're not being herded there for your eyeballs.)

    If you have enough processing power to run one loop of your program between samples arriving, you can do it in real time. Signal processing is a lot like desktop computers: it's faster and cheaper than it used to be, which means you can do more with it. The kind of modeling you find in a Blues Cube (and maybe these new Tone Masters; Fender isn't saying) would not have been possible in a sub-kilobuck package 20 years ago.
     
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.


  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.