I never outgrew notions like friendship, love and loyalty...

[telemystix]

I sort of get what you are saying, but I had a friend with a wife and two children who came home from work unexpectedly one night. He found his wife "entertaining" another man I'd say at that point he met the qualifications of being betrayed. Their relationship ended, the children suffered, he suffered, even the woman suffered. The only one who didn't suffer was the guy who went out the back door at a high rate of speed. I'm not sure betrayal is a matter of how one accepts things.

but it is...

I am sure that was a painful thing to experience and most people who go thru this suffer a lot of pain/anguish/anger etc...

however - here is where the road you choose and what you learn from it and what you teach your children about it is where people differ...

person 1 -
grieves and goes thru the stages of grief and recovery and the result is this;
"lying (insert names/labels) , betrayed me, cheater, i'll never marry, etc"

and then goes on thru their life until the next disappointment or betrayal where he will rinse/repeat the same response.

person 2 -
goes thru the grieving process/stages and examines himself, his beliefs/ his illusions about trust about love about dependence on another human being for his own happiness and he comes out on the other side this way:

"well, it was not how i hoped it would go but people are people and do things to satisfy their own needs and desires and my ex chose her path and we disagreed and I wish her the best"
(this person experienced much pain - the pain of realizing that his conditioning and his false beliefs about love/trust/marriage etc - were FALSE BELIEFS!)
Now person 2 has grown and understands that it is meaningless to make people promise you the world and then punish yourself when they break those promises...

instead - RID yourself of illusions and expectations - and STOP trying to protect yourself from OTHERS ACTIONS -

when you are aware - you quickly discover that there is nothing to protect - if you have zero expectations or demands - nothing will destroy you or hurt you

sure - the OLD conditioning will kick in and you will catch yourself allowing your emotions to trick you -

until you snap back on your growth and how you shed your false illusions and return to your better self...


just two different ways...

 

[blowtorch]

There is much wisdom in you ese!

well. thanks TD.
I guess...

I am way wiser and waaay stronger than I ever wanted to be.

 

[Toto'sDad]

but it is...

I am sure that was a painful thing to experience and most people who go thru this suffer a lot of pain/anguish/anger etc...

however - here is where the road you choose and what you learn from it and what you teach your children about it is where people differ...

person 1 -
grieves and goes thru the stages of grief and recovery and the result is this;
"lying (insert names/labels) , betrayed me, cheater, i'll never marry, etc"

and then goes on thru their life until the next disappointment or betrayal where he will rinse/repeat the same response.

person 2 -
goes thru the grieving process/stages and examines himself, his beliefs/ his illusions about trust about love about dependence on another human being for his own happiness and he comes out on the other side this way:

"well, it was not how i hoped it would go but people are people and do things to satisfy their own needs and desires and my ex chose her path and we disagreed and I wish her the best"
(this person experienced much pain - the pain of realizing that his conditioning and his false beliefs about love/trust/marriage etc - were FALSE BELIEFS!)
Now person 2 has grown and understands that it is meaningless to make people promise you the world and then punish yourself when they break those promises...

instead - RID yourself of illusions and expectations - and STOP trying to protect yourself from OTHERS ACTIONS -

when you are aware - you quickly discover that there is nothing to protect - if you have zero expectations or demands - nothing will destroy you or hurt you

sure - the OLD conditioning will kick in and you will catch yourself allowing your emotions to trick you -

until you snap back on your growth and how you shed your false illusions and return to your better self...


just two different ways...

Does a person's word mean nothing? The woman had sworn she would be faithful she was not. She CHOSE to be unfaithful, the other half of her agreement did not. I really can't see what you're offering has much practicality in the practice of life, but as you say, two different ways. I've tried to do what is right for a good deal of my life, sometimes I've failed, when I have I've taken responsibilty for the failure and not tried to blame someone else. That's about the best that I personally can do.

 

[getbent]

A guy I know falls into this category.
He can't work (health reasons), no family, and is always short financially, I loan him time and time again, and he always pays back. But I told him the last time that it was the last time, that it was just no good for either of us.

I just checked in with him this afternoon, saying I hoped things were going well for him. He said "I'm trying" and I said "well, that's all we can do, any of us".

I do feel bad for him. He has a small circle of "friends" like me, who pretty much dread hearing from him, because they know there's gonna be an outstretched hand attached

You have a great heart. Always clear to me. The hardest thing for me has been to be able to set boundaries in that situation. I admire both how kind you were and how you also set a boundary (when, by all rights, HE should have his own boundaries.)

 

[Telekarster]

What's funny is I have a lot of things to say on this topic, but I'm struggling to find the right words. LOL!!! All very good points ya'll are making out here though, carry on

 

[getbent]

Does a person's word mean nothing? The woman had sworn she would be faithful she was not. She CHOSE to be unfaithful, the other half of her agreement did not. I really can't see what you're offering has much practicality in the practice of life, but as you say, two different ways. I've tried to do what is right for a good deal of my life, sometimes I've failed, when I have I've taken responsibilty for the failure and not tried to blame someone else. That's about the best that I personally can do.

if the whole story is the story you shared... sure sounds like she reneged on her promise. but, I am old enough and lived long enough to want to hear the whole thing... and I know that two wrongs don't make a right.... but, I think I'd want to know all of it before I even began packing for a trip down the path of thinking I knew what was happening.

 

[Cpb2020]

A friend is someone you can have lunch with or go to a ballgame with and is enjoyable
A good friend you can share your problems with and ask for advice and maybe he'll help you move
A true friend will help you get rid of a body, no questions asked.

While I mentioned previously that I consider myself lucky for having 3 true friends, under your definition 2 of them are merely “good”; only 1 is “true”.

 

[Toto'sDad]

if the whole story is the story you shared... sure sounds like she reneged on her promise. but, I am old enough and lived long enough to want to hear the whole thing... and I know that two wrongs don't make a right.... but, I think I'd want to know all of it before I even began packing for a trip down the path of thinking I knew what was happening.

I do know what was happening, the woman was one of my runaround buddy's sisters. She married again, and again, and finally just quit all of that and drank. She died alone in her daughters back bedroom. I'm for sure not judging her. Some people just have a hard time in life.

I've told this story, so I won't embellish it, but I had a friend who had an experimental procedure done on him that cured him of leukemia when he was fifteen years old. One night over in the wee hours after we'd been drinking for a long time, he said you know what TD? I always .... up. You'd think he would have tried to do something with his life after having it given back to him, but as I say, some folks just have it hard. He's gone now too. I've seen a bunch of lives wasted in my time.

 

[Moonraker5]

I never outgrew notions like friendship, love and loyalty...

Give it time and you will outgrow those things. I'd say by the time you reach 26.

Know this: only a pet dog maintains friendship, love, and loyalty.

And I am not a cynic. Just a realist. Families do terrible things to each other, friends betray friends, wives and husbands actually murder each other... Only a dog remains faithful and true. Heck, my pet parrakeet - a little guy I generously feed and give water to every single day - actually bit me the other day!

 

[telemystix]

Does a person's word mean nothing? The woman had sworn she would be faithful she was not. She CHOSE to be unfaithful, the other half of her agreement did not. I really can't see what you're offering has much practicality in the practice of life, but as you say, two different ways. I've tried to do what is right for a good deal of my life, sometimes I've failed, when I have I've taken responsibilty for the failure and not tried to blame someone else. That's about the best that I personally can do.

No one can control others -

yes she chose to live her life in HER way -
of course her husband's illusions wounded him -
as it would anyone who lived under the false belief that happiness is in OTHER PEOPLE!

I , like you - do likewise - yes that is the best we can do.

When tragedy happens - we can blame others for OUR pain
or we can examine the pain and see WHY someone elses actions caused US to feel pain.

The discovery we will make is that WE are causing the pain - NOT the other person's actions.

If we examine the pain we will eventually discover (if we are honest) that we are in pain because we falsely believed that our happiness resided in other people.

A guy goes to the doctor with pain in his shoulder.
Doctor examines him and says to the patient:
"go home - give these meds to your neighbor - and your pain will go away!"

Absurd isn't it?

Yet that is EXACTLY what we all do..."i will be happy if my boss acts this way...i will be happy once my wife behaves in this way...i will be happy as long as my lover only sleeps with me!"

Yet this is all we were taught.

We can learn another way and we can begin with seeing thru our motives and then we will see thru others.

 

[Toto'sDad]

No one can control others -

yes she chose to live her life in HER way -
of course her husband's illusions wounded him -
as it would anyone who lived under the false belief that happiness is in OTHER PEOPLE!

I , like you - do likewise - yes that is the best we can do.

When tragedy happens - we can blame others for OUR pain
or we can examine the pain and see WHY someone elses actions caused US to feel pain.

The discovery we will make is that WE are causing the pain - NOT the other person's actions.

If we examine the pain we will eventually discover (if we are honest) that we are in pain because we falsely believed that our happiness resided in other people.

A guy goes to the doctor with pain in his shoulder.
Doctor examines him and says to the patient:
"go home - give these meds to your neighbor - and your pain will go away!"

Absurd isn't it?

Yet that is EXACTLY what we all do..."i will be happy if my boss acts this way...i will be happy once my wife behaves in this way...i will be happy as long as my lover only sleeps with me!"

Yet this is all we were taught.

We can learn another way and we can begin with seeing thru our motives and then we will see thru others.

You know, I mean no offence at all to you personally, but we are just too far apart on this deal to ever come to any common ground. I've spent my whole life following my own instincts and living by my own values. I reckon by now we just have to file this over here under:

Dog is too old to teach new tricks.

PS:

I've been married 57 years; my wife and I see eye to eye pretty much on every level. We're even golfing buddies. We've produced children that have been successful, so I think what we've done so far has been alright!

 

[telemystix]

You know, I mean no offence at all to you personally, but we are just too far apart on this deal to ever come to any common ground. I've spent my whole life following my own instincts and living by my own values. I reckon by now we just have to file this over here under:

Dog is too old to teach new tricks.

no worries -

didn't mean to insinuate i was asking you to see my way -

was hopefully trying to shed light on some of our illusions -of course myself included

 

[bowman]

Right and wrong have never been less clearly defined than they are right now - for anybody, no matter what your beliefs are. And the thing that’s really crazy about it is that everyone just KNOWS that they have the truth on their side. People used to listen to each other and try to understand. They even changed their minds once in awhile. That’s not gonna happen now. I’m right, you’re wrong, now get out of my face. I’m actually shocked when someone asks me how I feel about an issue, instead of telling me how I should feel.

 

[getbent]

I do know what was happening, the woman was one of my runaround buddy's sisters. She married again, and again, and finally just quit all of that and drank. She died alone in her daughters back bedroom. I'm for sure not judging her. Some people just have a hard time in life.

I've told this story, so I won't embellish it, but I had a friend who had an experimental procedure done on him that cured him of leukemia when he was fifteen years old. One night over in the wee hours after we'd been drinking for a long time, he said you know what TD? I always .... up. You'd think he would have tried to do something with his life after having it given back to him, but as I say, some folks just have it hard. He's gone now too. I've seen a bunch of lives wasted in my time.

I get it. I just didn't know that part. Don't get me wrong, I will close the book on things if I have enough data... she was probably a very messed up person... and dangerous to all she encountered.

 

[blowtorch]

If we examine the pain we will eventually discover (if we are honest) that we are in pain because we falsely believed that our happiness resided in other people.

This is true and this is big.
Everyone is responsible for their own happiness.
And thus, everyone is responsible for their own UNhappiness as well.

We should all of us learn to become either cold unfeeling robots or perpetually beaming pollyannas, maybe

 

[blowtorch]

Give it time and you will outgrow those things. I'd say by the time you reach 26.

I'm older than you. only by a few

 

[blowtorch]

People used to listen to each other and try to understand. They even changed their minds once in awhile. That’s not gonna happen now. I’m right, you’re wrong, now get out of my face. I’m actually shocked when someone asks me how I feel about an issue, instead of telling me how I should feel.

yep. polarization and division the likes which we've never seen in our lifetimes (he said, very cautiously)

 

[telemystix]

This is true and this is big.
Everyone is responsible for their own happiness.
And thus, everyone is responsible for their own UNhappiness as well.

We should all of us learn to become either cold unfeeling robots or perpetually beaming pollyannas, maybe

I fear you keep missing the point…

You wont become a unfeeling robot but you just might become free

Free of fear, free of dependence on other humans, free of inner conflict,etc

Being aware and detached is another way of saying you are free.

Unless you would rather be a slave. A slave to the whims of other people for your own happiness which IS your own responsibility.

Let me ask you : what would you say causes unhappiness?

After pondering on a multitude of reasons or events… you just might arrive at this truth…

That your unhappiness is being caused by the thinking in YOUR head. Not by any other person, event or thing.

Nope. The cause of your (and mine) unhappiness is the thinking in our head.

 

[RoscoeElegante]

Quite the topic! And agreed. Much agreed. "No man is a failure who has friends," and all that. My sister and I are pretty close, so that's good. But since our brother has always been a sadistic [an un-nice word un-said here]--I mean a literally and routinely torturing the family dog onward type of "person"--and our parents, cousins, aunts, and uncles are dead or very distant, friends have always had a brother-worthy meaning to me. I'm lucky that I've got some great friendships. Some of them for 40 and 30 ongoing years. And I'm solidly close to my kids. We goof, tease, talk, play, and can really trust each other. That's like friendship+.

Even so, if a friend seriously violated some irreducible principles--

--I'd have to go with the principles first. Violating others' basic rights means that that person isn't really capable of friendship, anyway, since friendship is so much an appreciation of others' individuality. (Now if one of my kids did it, I'd bet that evolution would kick in and I'd want to defend my warped genes as much as kick 'em for their crimes, myself.)

A long time ago, I was briefly kinda rich, by my standards. I had paid down my mortgage a lot and refinanced the rest. I had almost $75,000 in the bank, a steady job with good benefits. I had just bought one older kid a new car. For another, I had paid a year's worth of an expensive Boston rent. I had all the music gear I wanted. I could buy whatever food and rent whatever Canadian cottage I wanted. But, exactly at the time, I felt very friendless, as my closest friends were beset with major family or relationship woes. They were the type of problems that needed me to step back rather than reach in, so I had to keep my own woes and joys to myself. I've been quite poor many times before and since that materially flush time. Being poor is a godawful sinking, overwhelmed, being-erased, not-mattering feeling. But feeling friendless was much, much worse. A dollar in your pocket is very nice. But a friend to bug you to spend half of that on him, that's much better.

All that said, the point that some have made here--that we're responsible for our lives and happiness, whatever our friendships (or lack of them)--has a lot of merit, too. At another point in my life, many of my closest friends thought I was junk because they couldn't see how nasty a now-ex was. I seemed the bastard for growling about the marriage and wanting, needing out of it. Only when, let's say, the situation was objectively confirmed did my friends realize that they'd been forsaking me to their assumptions and even smugness. And that was even worse than friendlessness. So when I feel ignored or taken for granted by friends, my go-to is "I gotta my own friend here. Even if just one person--me--knows what's really going on, that's gotta be enough."

Sorry for the preachies, but with a good friend seriously ill lately, this has been much on my mind. We're indeed on our own, ideally together....

But dogs are dangerous moral measures here. Few humans are capable of that same steadiness of devotion, trust, love. Dogs so often give us more than we deserve....

 

[blowtorch]

what would you say causes unhappiness?

placing conditions on the absence of it.

conditions like, for example:
not being hungry
not being cold
not being cheated on
not being hit in the face with a hammer

stuff like that.

Yep, if you're going to walk around with a handbag full of expectations, you're going to be frustrated in finding happiness.