I honestly can't hear a difference between tube and solid state amps.

[Hoodster]

When I did this demo I couldn’t believe how lifeless the Quilter sounded compared to a very modestly priced tube amplifier. The Quilter had been my main amp for several years and I had really liked it. I sold it immediately after this…

 

[robinrockus]

I thought I could, and spent years in a "tube only" phase. But this past week or so, I've come to the realization that it was all in my mind. Now, I can tell the difference between a good and a bad amplifier, regardless of technology. And I have owned bad tube amps and bad solid state amps; however, as far as tube "warmth", "dynamics", etc., I simply don't hear it. The seeds of doubt began a few years ago when I had a Fender Frontman with a built-in LED distortion circuit. I also had an ADA MP-1 which was the rackmount tube preamp of the late-80's into the early 90's. Anyone who was anyone had one of those. I plugged that MP-1 into the Fender Frontman clean channel, A/B'd back and forth between that and the Fender's distortion channel (with the MP-1 bypassed), and with a little gain and EQ tweaking, both sounded identical. The LED distortion of the amp sounded exactly the same as the MP-1.

"Dynamics" is one element that tube amplifiers supposedly excel in (responsiveness to picking), but every single amp I've played through, tube or solid state, would respond dynamically if the gain knob was set right. "Warmth"? I've been fooled plenty of times by what I thought was a tube amp that turned out to be solid state. I thought I got a fantastic deal on a Hughes & Kettner tube rack preamp when I was stationed in Germany. The price was great for what (I though) I was getting based on the tone I heard in the store. I opened it up to see how many 12AX7's were in there and all I saw was a circuit board...

Of course, there are things like tube rectifier "sag" that is exclusive to tube amps, and that is something I've never really had a thing for, though I understand some people love it. But as far as tone itself and dynamics, no - I can't hear the difference. Odd and even-order harmonics? Can't hear the difference.

I'm open to the possibility that if I sat down with one good example of each, and spent some time going back and forth, there might be something I'd notice, but that "something" just might be the difference between two different amplifiers anyway.

MMmmm....My ears can tell a difference. To me, tube amps have more low end thump, and high end snap. There's "Ass" or a undefined fullness to a tube sound. To me, it's a more round, curved sound wave. There is certainly one thing most solid state amps do not do well, and that is handle a boost or signal increase (like simply turning a guitar or pedal volume up). You can get a clip, or solid state distortion, which can be quite unpleasant. With a tube amp, you just get a bit more breakup and linear increase to volume. However there are certain exceptions. Also, solid state amps seem (to me) better for PAs, acoustic guitars, and some bass applications, because that tube pre-amp break-up isn't prevalent. The newer class D solid state amps for linear array speakers/PA systems are great, but you can still get clipping. The balance from input volume to amp volume must be correct for the situation/venue. Also, many sound engineers will use a tube pre-amp in recording or even live situations because of the added "warmth". Many modern solid state amps have tube emulating circuits, and be quite convincing. But for electric guitar? To me a tube amp is just far superior. Go to a concert. What do you see? I see Fenders, and Marshalls, and Supros, and other fine tube amps. And usually more than one! There's a reason.

 

[NoTeleBob]

I agree. The best clean tone I ever had was a Yamaha G100ii 212 (the 50w version was not half as good, and its predecessor "fifty" outright sucked, it had everything you would expect from an old transistor amp!) I also played a red-stripe Bandit with amazing edge-of-breakup tone. I own a few of the classic tube amps, all of which I love. So I think I know the benchmark. But sound wise, I could live with my (long sold) old Yamaha and a decent boost pedal.

The G50/100 III Series is even better. The Series II & III are one of the few "Rivera designed" amps that he actually designed. Fantastic cleans like a Twin. Unfortunately the market has started to notice and the prices are up.

Distortion is meh. Some useable settings but mostly meh. Use a pedal.

Bandits are known to sound good flat out. Like cranking a tube amp. But at lower settings, not so remarkable.

 

[Brent Hutto]

MMmmm....My ears can tell a difference. To me, tube amps have more low end thump, and high end snap. There's "Ass" or a undefined fullness to a tube sound. To me, it's a more round, curved sound wave. There is certainly one thing most solid state amps do not do well, and that is handle a boost or signal increase (like simply turning a guitar or pedal volume up). You can get a clip, or solid state distortion, which can be quite unpleasant. With a tube amp, you just get a bit more breakup and linear increase to volume. However there are certain exceptions. Also, solid state amps seem (to me) better for PAs, acoustic guitars, and some bass applications, because that tube pre-amp break-up isn't prevalent. The newer class D solid state amps for linear array speakers/PA systems are great, but you can still get clipping. The balance from input volume to amp volume must be correct for the situation/venue. Also, many sound engineers will use a tube pre-amp in recording or even live situations because of the added "warmth". Many modern solid state amps have tube emulating circuits, and be quite convincing. But for electric guitar? To me a tube amp is just far superior. Go to a concert. What do you see? I see Fenders, and Marshalls, and Supros, and other fine tube amps. And usually more than one! There's a reason.

Of course nowadays that Fender you see behind the guitar player on stage might well be a Tonemaster

 

[NoTeleBob]

Go to a concert. What do you see? I see Fenders, and Marshalls, and Supros, and other fine tube amps. And usually more than one! There's a reason.

You mean ones they are actually playing through? Or the ones for show while they play into a Kemper backstage that feeds the PA?

 

[chris m.]

When I did this demo I couldn’t believe how lifeless the Quilter sounded compared to a very modestly priced tube amplifier. The Quilter had been my main amp for several years and I had really liked it. I sold it immediately after this…

Great video, and I appreciate your analysis at the end. I think this video is in some ways Exhibit A for what drives a lot of the disagreements I'm hearing in this thread:

1) All three tones sound quite good through my computer. It is hard for me to detect dramatic differences. Some folks may say, "aha, there is no difference". But until you actually try amps side by side in a room you really haven't had a chance to hear the true differences.

2) Even if you do the side-by-side test, some people will find the differences to be quite dramatic, while others will barely notice them. The "cork sniffer" analogy to wine snobs is an apt analogy. Wine aficionados are absolutely shocked when the hoi polloi suggest that maybe there isn't much difference between a $20 bottle of wine and a $10 bottle. However, in blind taste tests where labels cannot be examined, it is actually quite often the case that a bona fide wine snob will select a $10 or $12 bottle over a $20 or $30 bottle. Sometimes the dollar value is indicative of quality, sometimes it isn't.

3) Part of this thread has talked about it not being a fair contest when you pit a more expensive tube amp against a cheaper SS amp. In this case you picked three amps that are all relatively inexpensive, and you used the same high quality speaker in all three demos to help level the playing field. Take home message for me: the speaker and cabinet matter A LOT.

4) Use case really matters. You acknowledged that at gig volume, for example, the Quilter might really shine. This also depends on the gig, however. Nowadays I find myself having just enough amp volume so it serves as a monitor for me on stage, with most of the FOH sound coming through the PA. So even the little Champion 20 would suffice for my gigs if I made sure to point it right at my head and mike it.

5) One advantage of SS that people tout is that they can get a consistent tone at a wide range of volumes. But I believe that this can also be the case for many tube amps, depending on the actual level of gain you are seeking, and what is an acceptable volume level for you in your home or bedroom. I love how my Super Reverb sounds in my bedroom, even with the volume knob super low. It would probably be still too loud if I lived in an apartment, but at the level most people play their home stereo systems I think it sounds fantastic.

I actually played a ToneMaster Twin Reverb side by side against a Twin Reverb Reissue in a music store, as well as against a Katana 100. For my ears, the TR Reissue had a much richer sound and 3D quality...it wasn't even close. Furthermore, the Katana to my ears sounded just as good or better than the TMTR. But that's just me and my own personal opinion. Before anyone tells me I'm crazy or cork sniffing or need to do it in a blind test, don't cast that stone unless you yourself have actually tried them side-by-side in a room, live, rather than listening to a YouTube video and making your decision on that basis. We might still disagree, but I don't even want to have the discussion unless you've also collected some real world data first.

To try and show that I'm not utterly biased, I will mention that I am the happy owner of a BluGuitar Amp1 Mercury. I tried Quilter and Helix before settling on the Amp1. I think it sounds really, really good-- to the point that I'm gigging with it. Thomas Blug has a great ear and knows what he is doing, in my opinion. It might have something to do with the little tube that's in it, or maybe that's just marketing hype.

Having said that, I am not surprised at all that the Champion 20 has a pretty serviceable Fender sound through a decent cabinet. Fender knows exactly what they are doing. By the same token, Marshall is very good at producing a Marshall-y tone through their entire range of amps, from most expensive to cheapest.

 

[robinrockus]

Here's a great explanation I found online: The sine wave gets cut off in a solid state amp, and even order harmonics versus odd order harmonics.

Tone –

Here is the rub. Within that group of audio enthusiasts and musicians that really care about their sound, there are those that think vacuum tubes simply sound better and those that think solid-state is just as good or better. Solid-state enthusiasts can provide highly technical data that supports their argument, as can those that favour tube based designs.

There are really two sub groups when it comes to amplifiers. Those designed to create music and those designed to reproduce music. Both use completely different audio sources as inputs and very different speakers to handle the output. Musicians want amps that can provide a wide range sound, from sparkling clean to highly distorted and harmonic laden. Home audio enthusiasts want amps that will reproduce the original source material as closely as possible. They do not want to create distortion they want to reproduce the distortion made by others.

Distortion is one of the key selling points for tube amp lovers. Solid-state amps do not seem to distort as musically as vacuum tube designs. The primary reason is that when you drive tubes hard the distortion comes on gradually and presents itself as gradual compression that blooms into distortion. The high voltage supplied to vacuum tubes ensures that the output of the device seldom exceeds the voltage that runs it. Solid-state amps use lower voltage supply rails to operate and the output can exceed the supply voltage. When that happens, they do not start to compress and gradually clip. They simply cut off the output signal at that level. Sine waves become square waves immediately and the sound is not pleasant. Solid-state distortion in its pure form sounds something like bees in a tin foil bag. Not the best for musical instruments and completely unacceptable for home audio enthusiasts. The nature of clipping and distortion also affects the harmonic content of the output signal.

But the main reason both musicians and audiophiles alike love the sound of tubes is their even-order harmonic distortion. The primary difference is even-order versus odd-order harmonic distortion. Perhaps a lesser known type of distortion, harmonic distortion of tubes is what fills out the sound and adds warmth. Without getting too technical, all amplifiers will have sympathetic distortion related to the original signal. Tubes have mostly even-order harmonics (referred to as second, fourth, and sixth). Solid-state devices have more odd-order harmonics (third, fifth and so on). It is the even-order harmonics that will provide positive embellishments to the original signal, making it sound fuller. A technical article written by Russell O. Hamm published in 1973 in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society described this as a choral or singing sound. This is largely what provides the “tubey” sound, the full, deep, warm sound tube amplifiers are known for. The odd-order harmonics produced by solidstate amplifiers produce a edgy or cut-off sound. Often this is viewed as more “accurate” sounding, but the reality is it is also largely the cause of listener fatigue. It is not natural distortion or add to the original signal positively, and good ears with tire of it quickly.

Dynamic range is another point of contention between the camps. Solid-state does not seem to handle peaks or transients in the music signal as well as tubes.Essentially, I am talking about sound that goes bang or thump. This is likely due to that fact that tubes naturally have soft clipping and compression to handle transients and smooth those peaks and valleys. The amplification of bass guitar is an exception to this general rule. Low frequencies require more power to amplify than high frequencies. A tube amp designed specifically for low frequencies requires a lot of output tubes and massive transformers to generate the power that most bassists require for live performance. This makes them very hot, very big and very heavy. The Ampeg SVT is widely regarded as king of the bass tube amps but it only delivers 300 watts while modern solid-state sound systems can deliver thousands of watts in a much smaller, cooler package by using advanced operating modes such as class D.

If you are a skeptic, you should look at the direction taken by manufacturers of solid-state guitar amps. The advertisements usually feature genuine tube tone as a major selling point. In order to deliver on this selling point additional solid-state devices were developed that more closely mimic the clipping characteristic of tubes. Helper circuits create things like asymmetrical clipping and distortion on demand, using simple diodes. The technology has really gotten good over time. The advent of amplifier modelling is perhaps the biggest chance for solid-state amps to sound like tube amps and has been a real bonus for recording applications. Just add a computer to your amp and season to taste.

 

[cousinpaul]

It's not black and white with me. There are some tube amps that I don't care for; others that I absolutely adore. Although my experience with SS gear is more limited, my Quilter 101 gets a lot of play and I prefer it over many consumer-grade tube amps. I pretty much save my own tube amp for special occasions.

 

[c4ntaro_sinf0nico]

You should listen to some REALLY good tube amps (no a rack mounted ADA or H&K does not fall into this category).
Than I am sure you WILL hear the difference.

That sounds like the "no true scotsman" fallacy, tbh.

 

[PhredE]

Was going to add that comparisons such as these really need to be output to the same speaker. Differences between different amp types/models will certainly be noticed, but unless the speaker is 'factored out' of the comparison, the observer is hearing the differences between speakers as well.
Speakers are 1/2 the sound of an amp.

 

[omahaaudio]

To me, tube amps have more low end thump, and high end snap

A Boss GE-7 will fix that for you.

 

[USian Pie]

Skimming this thread, just one observation:

Is it possible to have a discussion about tube and solid state amplification that doesn't include some variation of, "Well, your ears just aren't very good?"

That is a staggeringly foolish thing to say online about a person you probably don't even know.

I am probably not alone in having experiences with players who sound amazing but say they honestly don't care/can't hear differences between certain pieces of equipment. Likewise, I think we all have heard folks who were quite intense about certain gear choices, only to sound rather "meh" themselves.

FWIW, I'm using solid state amps these days because they suit my needs and sound better for me than the tube amps I've tried. It was simply a case of imagining the sound I wanted and trying amps until I had the, "That's it!" experience. That amp just happened to be solid state.

The sound I imagined may not be the one 95% of the guitar-playing public seeks. Moreover, I've tailored other parts of my rig to make the most of the amp. In particular, a really good compressor and the right speaker make a big difference.

 

[omahaaudio]

Even if you do the side-by-side test, some people will find the differences to be quite dramatic, while others will barely notice them. The "cork sniffer" analogy to wine snobs is an apt analogy. Wine aficionados are absolutely shocked when the hoi polloi suggest that maybe there isn't much difference between a $20 bottle of wine and a $10 bottle. However, in blind taste tests where labels cannot be examined, it is actually quite often the case that a bona fide wine snob will select a $10 or $12 bottle over a $20 or $30 bottle. Sometimes the dollar value is indicative of quality, sometimes it isn't.

I can usually tell a difference between a €10 bottle of French wine and a €20 bottle of French wine, depending on where they're from,
but I've always found it difficult to tell much of a difference between a €50 bottle and a €200 bottle.

That being said I can drive 30-100 miles north of where I live (Beaujolais and Burgundy) and buy some fantastic wines for €10, direct from the vineyard. It makes for a nice day trip. We also have regular "salons" (wine fairs) four or more time a year that bring together 400-500 independent wine makers selling direct.

 

[sleekpicker]

Of course nowadays that Fender you see behind the guitar player on stage might well be a Tonemaster

I saw one (a TMDLR) on stage at the recent tribute to Taylor Hawkins (as well as various tube amps).

 

[maxvintage]

When I did this demo I couldn’t believe how lifeless the Quilter sounded compared to a very modestly priced tube amplifier. The Quilter had been my main amp for several years and I had really liked it. I sold it immediately after this…

Appreciate your effort here but the amps are obviously eq'd differently, and have different speakers, so it's not really a valid comparison. For what it's worth I disiked the sound of the Traynor a lot.

 

[beyer160]

It's worth observing that most "great" guitarists in the last few decades have used [solid state] pedals with their tube amps. Hendrix, SRV, Trower, Gilmour, etc, etc, etc. The dumping on how terrible SS distortion and breakup sounds is really not a solid hill to make an argument on.

1. Many of them used SS devices purely as an additional gain stage to drive their tube amps harder, not as tone shaping devices.
2. A tube amp will react differently when presented with the output of a gain device than a SS amp will.

Ah, and there you go touting your blinkered opinions and prejudices as a universal truth, and that's just baloney. Because all that is a matter of taste, and thus 100% personal and subjective, and modern modellers DO produce good and usable sounds if you know how to use them.

...but that's just YOUR subjective opinion that they produce "good and usable sounds." Clearly this isn't true for everyone.

If you play clubs, you and the audience won't know the difference.

I choose to apply a higher standard to my work than what the drunks at the corner bar will notice, but fair enough, lots of folks don't care about having standards.

It's fascinating that this post about the advantages of tube amps is accompanied by a photo of a pedal board full of solid state devices. If tube amps sound better, why is there such a huge market in boutique solid state drive pedals?

Because guitar players are dumb and buy into hype from people trying to sell them stuff.

1) All three tones sound quite good through my computer.

Oof.

Thanks for bringing up an important point. This is where we are, I guess. Earbuds, mp3s, phone speakers... forget about "a good set of ears," I guess it's true that many listeners just don't have the hardware to properly hear audio anymore. In that case, let's toss our tube amps on the nearest skip and embrace our digital overlords.

That sounds like the "no true scotsman" fallacy, tbh.

Sometimes there is a difference, though. A starved plate ADA preamp has as much to do with a '71 Super Lead as the lunch lady in your grammar school has to do with Liz Hurley.

Less, probably.

 

[rockinstephen]

And to think I thought I was the only one who couldn't tell the difference. Maybe If I could hear a demo where the amps could be switched on and off. Reading about the differences is one thing, but it isn't the same as actually listening...

 

[Wooly Fox]

I run a wet-dry/dual mono rig at the moment using a Quilter Tone Block 202 for the wet side into a 200W bass speaker and a custom 50W tube amp into a 2x12 fitted with JBL D120F speakers.

This pairing is really great for this setup as the Quilter is super clean so the reverb and delay sits nicely understand the more driven tube amp.

I have tried it with the Quilter dry and tube amp wet and I just didn't like the Quilter driven, too buzzy for my taste.

Although does anyone know of a high end solid state amp that goes for similar money as a boutique tube amp?

 

[sleekpicker]

Eric Gales plays SS. Any thoughts on HIS abilities?

Sigh.

Yep - I saw Joe Pass and he was playing through a Polytone; I didn't have any complaints about his tone.

 

[Fretting out]

I can tell the response difference

I play through a tone master twin and there’s definitely a difference in “feel” compared to its tube counterpart

I still love it though….