I have a theory about American Cars....

MarkieMark

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Agreed that automotive artwork is on another level, but I tend to see artistry in many affordable peoples cars & bikes.
I was fixing the family car as a kid cause mom wuz broke!
Had several Chiltons manuals in my preteens and still never amounted to much as a mechanic, but loved and love good machinery and working on it.
Rust and wiring not so much.

I see artistry in design all around as well.
But it doesn't make a vehicle "good" or "bad" as much as simply visually appealing.

"Visually appealing" has proven to be a poor path to choosing a vehicle purchase for at least 100 years. Yet it remains a prevalent motivator.
 

Fireball519

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I've not gotten a GM product I trusted since 1970. Sure some of them get you to work, but small things fail, trim, interior, finishes etc and large things sometimes too. I've rented many when I traveled every week for 2 years. Just not up to import quality. GM failures I've had:
Chevy Vega: engine shot at 50k miles
2006 Chevy Colorado pickup: Tranny failure doing 35 miles per hour. Failed at 38K miles, warranty was for 36K miles.
Almost bought a Chevy CCR new in 2018 (?), but what a noisy little 4 cyl engine. Nothing like a Toyota.

OTOH 3 Dodge products since '98 have been zero failures. Just maintenance.
It's very hard to change a company culture. Somewhere after the 60's GM culture just went bad.

I was involved with manufacturing for over 40 years. I can tell you this:
-When a company that makes high quality stuff makes a lower price item, it almost always continues to be higher quality. The workers have a quality mindset and can't get away from that.
-When a company that makes low quality stuff tries to make a high quality product, they fail for a long time until they can change the mindset/culture.
Interesting you should mention Dodge in the good category. I remember my dad bought a brand new(at the time)1998 Dodge Ram 2500. Before the warranty ran out we put 3 transmissions in that truck. I had an old square body 1500 once. Drove it 30 minutes and the break system failed and locked completely down. I've always been a Ford guy. My grandfather raised me that way. I've had good luck with them for the most part but there's good and bad in all
 

telemnemonics

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I see artistry in design all around as well.
But it doesn't make a vehicle "good" or "bad" as much as simply visually appealing.

"Visually appealing" has proven to be a poor path to choosing a vehicle purchase for at least 100 years. Yet it remains a prevalent motivator.
Right I hear that point but my visual cravings are more machinery than body and styling.
Of course a beautifully engineered valve train can be part of an unreliable engine in an unreliable car too.
So I drool over mechanicals that both look and work good.
I was mostly into GM for American cars but the Ford Coyote engine is attractive enough to sway me to Ford should I ever own an antique hot rod again.
IDK, the old Detroit pushrod muscle used to seem cooler.
I am getting to love the water cooled four valve dirt bike motors that have zero visual styling yet look like swiss watch engineering because I have an understanding of what is inside the cases and how much power they make from modest displacement, plus no body covering the mechanicals.
 

MarkieMark

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Right I hear that point but my visual cravings are more machinery than body and styling.
Of course a beautifully engineered valve train can be part of an unreliable engine in an unreliable car too.
So I drool over mechanicals that both look and work good.
I was mostly into GM for American cars but the Ford Coyote engine is attractive enough to sway me to Ford should I ever own an antique hot rod again.
IDK, the old Detroit pushrod muscle used to seem cooler.
I am getting to love the water cooled four valve dirt bike motors that have zero visual styling yet look like swiss watch engineering because I have an understanding of what is inside the cases and how much power they make from modest displacement, plus no body covering the mechanicals.
I can totally relate to the "valvetrain design as artistry" appreciation you express.

First off, I will exclaim the the piston/puck (shim) design patented by Yamaha is by far the example that leads all modern overhead cam designs IMO.
Simplicity. Low mass.
How can one argue with a design that had no hydraulic adjusters, no complex articulation, and could be lashed from the factory and generally never be touched in a normal lifecycle.

But I can appreciate the details of those small engines you describe as well.
I recently "rehabbed" a string of them.
Of the last four, three were brought to me describing "low compression"
"have you adjusted the valve lash?"
No... They need a re-ring....
"No, probably not"
So I re-do the top end. Fresh rings, light hone of the cylinders and set the valve lash. Nothing wrong with 3 of the last four except neglected valve lash.
Nothing.
Number four has a scored cylinder, scuffed piston and stuck rings.
Pull the oil filter and its a gunked neglected mess.
"You know, oil is a coolant as well as lubricant..."
And yeah, there's a little screen in the bottom of the cases we are going to have to access too...

So we come back to...
9 out of 10 users think that brand is bulletproof.
1 out of 10 thinks it is unreliable and poorly designed....

Turns back to topic...
 

buster poser

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"You know, oil is a coolant as well as lubricant..."
Correct

1675349513546.png
 

imwjl

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"You know, oil is a coolant as well as lubricant..."

Turns back to topic...
Yes, first from driving trucks and operating heavy machinery, but I was very entertained to read the manual and see how one of our cars wants owners to pay attention to oil temp with it right in middle of gauge cluster.

It's kind of a fascinating miracle to know the complexity of a few well-proven modern German and Japanese engines and how well they work plus the reliability. I hope the new and relatively new Stellantis and GM turbo engines are good like their competition. If so the ones angry over death of Hemi V8 should be happy.
But as I mentioned in another reply to this thread, it's "big two" when it comes to ownership. "Chrysler" and it's brands have not been "US owned" for a very long time now. Daimler...Fiat...Stelantis...
It's been big two in my mind for a while. My loyalty is to a combo of good products above all and then good employers. As said in another post I worked at a supplier that made parts that went into US made Hondas when then big 3 were still not really out of their SFQ/malaise era.

6 pages in @doghouseman nor others have yet explained how middle management is root cause of screwing everything up in the industry or other industries. It was not the case in my 12 years mostly tied to the auto industry and even in a JIT parts maker. Work I did in insurance companies and health care providers are the only places where those stereotypes could be more appropriate. Even then we have to factor in how those are not so normal businesses.
 

schmee

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Interesting you should mention Dodge in the good category. I remember my dad bought a brand new(at the time)1998 Dodge Ram 2500. Before the warranty ran out we put 3 transmissions in that truck. I had an old square body 1500 once. Drove it 30 minutes and the break system failed and locked completely down. I've always been a Ford guy. My grandfather raised me that way. I've had good luck with them for the most part but there's good and bad in all
Yeah, I have heard Dodge trucks are problematic, especially trannies. My nephew had the same issues. Of the big 3, my money is on Ford also , at least lately.
But I have to say, my Caravans have been bulletproof regardless of the hype. Easy to load with band gear with the low deck, seats stow in the floor. Loaded to the brim on the hiway, in the summer with the AC on, I get about 21mpg from the 3.3 V6. I'm on my 3rd one in 23 years and not one has failed. I dont think I've ever put a quart of oil in between oil changes either in any of the 3.
Sturdy comfortable seats for long trips also.
 

doghouseman

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in your head man....

Explain. In English, not "small enterprise" speak.
Completely lost me there.

Yes, first from driving trucks and operating heavy machinery, but I was very entertained to read the manual and see how one of our cars wants owners to pay attention to oil temp with it right in middle of gauge cluster.

It's kind of a fascinating miracle to know the complexity of a few well-proven modern German and Japanese engines and how well they work plus the reliability. I hope the new and relatively new Stellantis and GM turbo engines are good like their competition. If so the ones angry over death of Hemi V8 should be happy.

It's been big two in my mind for a while. My loyalty is to a combo of good products above all and then good employers. As said in another post I worked at a supplier that made parts that went into US made Hondas when then big 3 were still not really out of their SFQ/malaise era.

6 pages in @doghouseman nor others have yet explained how middle management is root cause of screwing everything up in the industry or other industries. It was not the case in my 12 years mostly tied to the auto industry and even in a JIT parts maker. Work I did in insurance companies and health care providers are the only places where those stereotypes could be more appropriate. Even then we have to factor in how those are not so normal businesses.
Sorry, yes... middle management. I worked in research lab and middle management consisted of bench level scientists that had no idea how to manage people. I am guessing someplace like GM would hire people with management degrees, which probably was the correct thing to do. I assumed middle manageent was bad everywhere. My bad.
 

doghouseman

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in your head man....
GM apparently learned to build cars after the bankruptcy and reorganization. I bought two new 2012 Chevy Volts and was really impressed by the engineering and build quality, and they were far more enjoyable to drive than their closest competition, the Toyota Prius. The Cadillac ATS and CTS were recognized by enthusiast magazines as at or near the top of the ratings for sedans in our market. The Corvette C7 was a huge improvement over the C6, and today's C8 has been rated as the highest quality new American car. I currently own a 2016 Cadillac ELR, and it has been flawless. America is back.
Yes, that is what I mean in the OP. GM went through a big reorg after 2008. Ford did not. Just wondering how that effected the cars. Perhaps bankruptcy pushed everyone at GM to be on the same page.

My son has a Volt and it is great. No problems so far.
 

imwjl

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Sorry, yes... middle management. I worked in research lab and middle management consisted of bench level scientists that had no idea how to manage people. I am guessing someplace like GM would hire people with management degrees, which probably was the correct thing to do. I assumed middle manageent was bad everywhere. My bad.
Yes, I will agree it can be poor in some lab firms having done contracts in some and knowing the careers of friends. Smart with STEM and management skills are different. I live in a significant biotech and Pharma area with scientist friends both pleased and upset now with their firms hiring more people with management skills and training vs the culture that was promote good scientists.

For about 10 years I did .5 to 2 year complicated projects in all sorts of firms and except for health care and insurance it is when I started to see a lot of middle management criticism was not right.

Now having near 50 years in the workplace I'm really pleased with competition my country didn't always creating better organizations, and in the past few years really pleased with new respect and compensation for first line workers. I need to remember being over the anger of my 1980 Chevrolet LOL.
 

Jim_in_PA

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I have heard Dodge trucks are problematic, especially trannies.
Recent generation RAM (not Dodge) use ZF transmissions as do most "Chrysler" brand vehicle models. They are used by other manufacturers, too. Some come out of the ZF manufacturing in Germany and some are build by "Chrysler" under license.
 

imwjl

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Recent generation RAM (not Dodge) use ZF transmissions as do most "Chrysler" brand vehicle models. They are used by other manufacturers, too. Some come out of the ZF manufacturing in Germany and some are build by "Chrysler" under license.
Yes, a few manufacturers and licensed designs are used across brands like a few firms make or design a lot for the whole industry such as interiors. That makes Tesla different from some competition but it doesn't appear Tesla's or others going more vertical is same as classic days of Ford Rouge complex. GM just investing in US mining reminded me of earlier times but that was iron more than rare earth metals.

That few designs or makers matter can be interesting for some warranty, TSB and recalls. I recall a throwout bearing problem a while ago that was across a few brands and it was really about a TREMEC part more than any automaker's part but they did handle it differently. TREMEC for those unaware is a Mexican company that has the roots in some classic USA designs but today is in basic and super cars alike.

It really entertains me the way some parts or platforms are in such a huge array of final products. I think from @CharlieO posts, Cadillac is catching up on VAG's game and not so much just using adhesive and plastic fasteners to make a Chevy a Cadillac now. Far more like Audi some VW differences.
 

Whatizitman

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If I needed a truck, it would be a Toyota or a Ford. Period. I've had crappy experience with Chrysler. My in-laws had a '99/00 Surburban 2WD that was great for as long as they owned it from new - maybe 3-4 years at the most. Not sure about the mileage. But it wasn't very high when they sold it off. And I only drove it on a few occasions. But my wife and I did one long road trip in it, and were plenty satisfied at the time.

I don't need a truck. And I certainly don't need a Suburban, or anything of that sort or size. And despite being a "truck" kinda guy all my life, I no longer want a truck. Too expensive. And, well, too obnoxious and pretentious nowadays. There, I said it. I was a truck kinda guy when trucks fit my values of being economically priced, simple and sturdy designs, utilitarian, and free from unnecessary doohickies. In fact, my fav type of vehicles were known as "strippy" trucks. Only fleet sales offer those now. And I don't need a fleet.

So where does that leave me? A hard no to anything American branded. Notice I didn't say made. My experience with domestic brand autos, and trucks (Chrysler), have been abysmal at best. In efforts to "rekindle" any relationship I have with domestic brands since the 90s have been less than satisfying. They might be more reliable nowadays. But still hate their fit and feel. And though I'm not a huge stickler for looks, I hate their looks. This continues year after year. Ford autos have been the worst for me. But I know that Ford trucks have many happy owners. And out of the big 3 (4 with Toyota), they are the least obnoxious pre-sale than the rest. Whatever some "truck" guy does to pimp their ride after it leaves the lot is none of my concern. :rolleyes:

Been buying Hondas since forever. My next new car may be a Subaru, only because Honda lags behind them in standard features. I'm not talking luxury. I want AWD and heated seats. That's it for me. I love stick shift, but that's now a luxury option. So no. My wife needs higher ride height for getting in and out of the vehicle. I can't get all three of those in a Honda at a reasonable enough price compared to a Subaru. So there it is.

I'm done with cars and trucks being toys, status symbols, hobby, bucket list, whatever. My hobby now? Spending as little as I can on reliable transportation that doesn't suck my life away emotionally or financially. My 2015 Accord, paid off 2.5 years ago, just hit 120K yesterday. It is reliable to a fault. Boring as hell. I've never had a car as reliable as this Accord. That includes ALL other Hondas and Toyotas I've owned. No issues in 8 years of regular use. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. 120k with any domestic car for me in the past meant massive leaks, tranny issues, and for the Chrysler trucks and Ford cars, motor and tranny replacements. Done and done.

This year I will need to decide if I will be handing the car off to a college kiddo or not. Either way, we will need a new car. It will be a Honda or a Subaru. No hybrids. No EVs. Not yet, anyway. Price still being the only barrier. Just can't justify it with the budget.

Done playing the car game. It's a car. I need it for transportation in the modern world. Nothing else. Period. I need a truck even less.

/RANT
 
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CharlieO

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It really entertains me the way some parts or platforms are in such a huge array of final products. I think from @CharlieO posts, Cadillac is catching up on VAG's game and not so much just using adhesive and plastic fasteners to make a Chevy a Cadillac now. Far more like Audi some VW differences.
I think that GM has figured out that there is way to be very profitable that is very different from what US automakers did from the 1950s through the early 2000s. Consumers are too well informed to fall for the old "badge engineering" that took a Chevy and made it into a Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick, and a Cadillac with just a pile of various cosmetic parts. They have learned that sophisticated buyers will pay $100,000+ (or $300,000+ for the Celestiq???) for a high quality Cadillac that competes with the best luxury brand names in the world, and the profit margins on those expensive cars are huge. To earn back the credibility that they lost over the past 60 years, Cadillac now offers performance that meets or exceeds that of its major foreign competitors, interiors that no longer look like an upscale Chevy (you should see my ELR), and technology that isn't even offered by other luxury brands (Super Cruise, which notably is better than Tesla's Auto Pilot). The interior of the new Lyriq EV is unique and draws little if anything from other GM vehicles, and at its price point its only real competition comes from Genesis (another brand that is doing things right).

The Corvette C8 is another example of GM discovering that they can offer a very high quality product with outstanding performance at a price which allows significant profit. As most of us know, the Corvette's real competition is priced 50 to 200+ percent higher. GM knows that Corvette buyers won't pay those prices, but if the typical Corvette sells for $90,000 to $100,000 there is a lot of profit to be made. For GM, it's far better to sell 34,000+ Corvettes in 2022 than 9233 Lamborghinis, even though the profit margin is undoubtedly higher for each Lamborghini.

On the subject of shared platforms, you will see that many auto makers are or will be using the same skateboard platform for various EV models. That's fine, and it makes a lot of sense. Hopefully that will allow them to spend more effort on improving the quality of the vehicles. It might seem strange to have a large pickup truck on the same basic platform as a future EV sports car, but if it works, why not?
 

Patton

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"Visually appealing" has proven to be a poor path to choosing a vehicle purchase for at least 100 years. Yet it remains a prevalent motivator.

While I do agree with that, I think I hit the timing right when I bought my 2009 Mustang GT new. Fit and finish are excellent, it's comfortable inside (for two), it got 5-star frontal crash ratings, you can actually see out of the rear window and no real blind spots (I'm looking at you Camero). Plus, I think they hit the retro look out of the park with these 05'-09' Mustangs. I sought the lowest optioned GT 5-speed I could find (only one option on the window sticker, locking lug nuts) so not a ton of electronic bells and whistles that can go wrong. These were still hydraulic steering, not electric, so the road feel is really great.

I have added a few subtle things here and there with the functional shaker hood scoop and hood pins being the most obvious. Boy, drilling and cutting into a perfectly good hood was a real "measure 24 times cut once" sort of thing! It turns out the hoods on this era Mustang were one of Ford's first uses of aluminum in a body panel.

2009 mustang.jpg
 

imwjl

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I think that GM has figured out that there is way to be very profitable that is very different from what US automakers did from the 1950s through the early 2000s. Consumers are too well informed to fall for the old "badge engineering" that took a Chevy and made it into a Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick, and a Cadillac with just a pile of various cosmetic parts. They have learned that sophisticated buyers will pay $100,000+ (or $300,000+ for the Celestiq???) for a high quality Cadillac that competes with the best luxury brand names in the world, and the profit margins on those expensive cars are huge. To earn back the credibility that they lost over the past 60 years, Cadillac now offers performance that meets or exceeds that of its major foreign competitors, interiors that no longer look like an upscale Chevy (you should see my ELR), and technology that isn't even offered by other luxury brands (Super Cruise, which notably is better than Tesla's Auto Pilot). The interior of the new Lyriq EV is unique and draws little if anything from other GM vehicles, and at its price point its only real competition comes from Genesis (another brand that is doing things right).

The Corvette C8 is another example of GM discovering that they can offer a very high quality product with outstanding performance at a price which allows significant profit. As most of us know, the Corvette's real competition is priced 50 to 200+ percent higher. GM knows that Corvette buyers won't pay those prices, but if the typical Corvette sells for $90,000 to $100,000 there is a lot of profit to be made. For GM, it's far better to sell 34,000+ Corvettes in 2022 than 9233 Lamborghinis, even though the profit margin is undoubtedly higher for each Lamborghini.

On the subject of shared platforms, you will see that many auto makers are or will be using the same skateboard platform for various EV models. That's fine, and it makes a lot of sense. Hopefully that will allow them to spend more effort on improving the quality of the vehicles. It might seem strange to have a large pickup truck on the same basic platform as a future EV sports car, but if it works, why not?
Yes. I hope with some new models they pull off how well some makers use shared platforms and parts but also give a doesn't feel cheap impression. They will need that to get someone who went to or has only known modest vehicles like a Camry, Golf or similar.
 




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