I believe my "66" Tele's nut, intonation problems on lower frets, what to do?

[Winky]

A suggestion made elsewhere is to intonate the guitar to be "correct" at the 7th or even 5th fret. It's all a compromise, but you might find that one to be easier on your ears. Arguably, the only reason we became wedded to 12th fret intonation was that in the era before electronic tuners, we could use the 12th fret harmonic to compare to the fretted note at the same place.

 

[Kingpin]

That picture has always looked exactly wrong to me. The issue of sharp fretted notes near the nut (in my experience) is most notable on the E and A strings. I therefore want them to exit the nut CLOSER to the first fret not further away. That nut would make my intonation issues even worse. Maybe that's just me.

The picture is correct. You want the strings to exit the nut further away from the frets, to compensate for string mass, tension and "fretting stretch." The Earvana website goes into detail on these issues.

https://felineguitars.com/products/earvana-compensated-nut-fender-shelf-type

 

[RickatAscap]

A suggestion made elsewhere is to intonate the guitar to be "correct" at the 7th or even 5th fret. It's all a compromise, but you might find that one to be easier on your ears. Arguably, the only reason we became wedded to 12th fret intonation was that in the era before electronic tuners, we could use the 12th fret harmonic to compare to the fretted note at the same place.

Ive tried that, with interesting results. Ultimately it didnt save the day, yet it certainly provided me with some valuable information.
Thank you for that, much appreciated
R

 

[Antoon]

That picture has always looked exactly wrong to me. The issue of sharp fretted notes near the nut (in my experience) is most notable on the E and A strings. I therefore want them to exit the nut CLOSER to the first fret not further away. That nut would make my intonation issues even worse. Maybe that's just me.

It also depends on what strings one uses. With flatwounds and a wound G i have almost zero intonation issues.

 

[RickatAscap]

It also depends on what strings one uses. With flatwounds and a wound G i have almost zero intonation issues.

If only it were resolved that easily. I’m glad it worked for you, I’ll certainly look into it
Thanks for that

 

[Freeman Keller]

That picture has always looked exactly wrong to me. The issue of sharp fretted notes near the nut (in my experience) is most notable on the E and A strings. I therefore want them to exit the nut CLOSER to the first fret not further away. That nut would make my intonation issues even worse. Maybe that's just me.

That is an Earvana nut installed on a Warmoth neck at the factory. The guitar intonated fine and plays pretty much in tune on the entire board. It is interesting, however, that the notching is different from what Magliari ends up with his method.

I'll have to give this some thought.....

 

[Winky]

That is an Earvana nut installed on a Warmoth neck at the factory. The guitar intonated fine and plays pretty much in tune on the entire board. It is interesting, however, that the notching is different from what Magliari ends up with his method.

I'll have to give this some thought.....

The Buzz Feiten aftermarket "shelf" nut does the opposite of what the Earvana nut appears to do.

 

[Winky]

The picture is correct. You want the strings to exit the nut further away from the frets, to compensate for string mass, tension and "fretting stretch." The Earvana website goes into detail on these issues.

https://felineguitars.com/products/earvana-compensated-nut-fender-shelf-type

Thanks. What I was missing from that picture is that the slots ARE moved towards the 1st fret, but by varying amounts (high - e string maybe not?). The nut looks, from the side, much like a BF shelf nut. (It is likely the case that I just don't notice the sharp notes as much on the higher-pitched strings.)

 

[Freeman Keller]

I've never paid much attention to the Buzz Feiten system - it is patented which means that technically I can't do anything with it. I've also not really spent much time with the Earvana system - I was asked to assemble a guitar using it, I did and it worked. I have read the Magliari theory and it makes sense - he is moving the break point towards the saddle and at the same time actually moves the first three frets towards the nut.

On my own guitars I do the little trick when I make a fretboard of cutting at the zero fret when I make a nut. The kerf of my saw blade is 0.020 which means the the nut is moved towards the bridge by half that. It is a trick Bob Taylor (and I'm sure others) discovered by accident, but it help and is easy to do. I fret with the Rule of 18 like everyone else, intonate by moving the saddles just like ever one else. I'm a little careful when I tune, I might temper strings slightly depending on the key I'm going to play in and, frankly, it sounds OK to me.

If that strat with the Earvana nut ever comes back for a tune up I want to take some more measurements on it. The owner is an excellent player, among other things he plays in a Pink Floyd tribute band and in my opinion does a good job nailing the David Gilmour sound.

 

[netgear69]

Wondering how sharp the intonation is i have yet to see a standard 3 saddle setup intonate properly it always just seems like give and take
personally if it bugged me that much i would take the 3 saddle bridge off put it in the case and put a 6 saddle bridge on there

 

[RickatAscap]

Wondering how sharp the intonation is i have yet to see a standard 3 saddle setup intonate properly it always just seems like give and take
personally if it bugged me that much i would take the 3 saddle bridge off put it in the case and put a 6 saddle bridge on there

Quite honestly it does bother me that much, I hear everything, I’ve certainly considered buying a six saddle bridge, yet I’m so wired not to change anything on this 66, that, it’s to my detriment. Of coarse I can buy one, and should I ever want to let go of this guitar. swap the original back in. It makes sense, yet, I know the frets need to be done, I’ll do that first, then if I’m still having problems on te lower frets I’ll try the 6 saddle bridge.
Thanks
Rick

 

[Painter644]

I may be wrong but the two higher (E-B, G-D) saddles look like they’re on backwards with the contact points higher on the bass side of the saddle. I’d turn them around and see how it intonates. As I said, I may be wrong, but the natural order of string length might play a part in this.

I've been having intonation problems on the lower frets of my 66 Tele. I have perfect intonation at the twelfth fret, yet, anything below the 5th, I'm unable to address on my own so far. I belief the problem comes from the nut, and I'm not sure on how to proceed. The nut on the guitar is the original nut, and its held its own for quite a long time
The nut that Fender sells for their pre 70's Tele's measures

• 1.650" (42 mm) wide

Where as my nut, measuring with a caliper comes in at 41mm, clearly I could sand it, yet its notched, and I wonder if this could be an issue.
Any thoughts?

I may be wrong but the two higher (E-B, G-D) saddles look like they’re on backwards with the contact points higher on the bass side of the saddle. I’d turn them around and see how it intonates. As I said, I may be wrong, but the natural order of string length might play a part in this.

 

[RickatAscap]

I may be wrong but the two higher (E-B, G-D) saddles look like they’re on backwards with the contact points higher on the bass side of the saddle. I’d turn them around and see how it intonates. As I said, I may be wrong, but the natural order of string length might play a part in this.

I may be wrong but the two higher (E-B, G-D) saddles look like they’re on backwards with the contact points higher on the bass side of the saddle. I’d turn them around and see how it intonates. As I said, I may be wrong, but the natural order of string length might play a part in this.

I’ll check it out, thank you

 

[Sea Devil]

There's been a lot of fancy technical talk here, and most of it makes a lot of sense. Still, the OP seems to be having some difficulty implementing the various suggestions, perhaps due to a lack of specialized tools.

Here's an easy way to get a rough idea of how much higher the nut slots are than the frets: get an old credit card, or anything similar, that has a rigid, straight edge. If the corners are rounded, cut one side so that you have a sharp corner that's 90 degrees or less. Rest the long side on the first couple of frets, slide that sharp corner up against the nut, and see where it falls relative to the slot for each string.

Unless you have a really trained eye and know what you're looking for, it will only give give you a rough idea, but it will definitely tell you something.

This is basically the start of how I set the slot heights. I use a metal fret rocker to span a couple frets, insert feeler gauges until they're snug, and then add the desired height for each string. I use the adjacent strings to hold the feeler gauges at that height against the nut, and stop when my file hits metal. It's pretty foolproof.

 

[RickatAscap]

There's been a lot of fancy technical talk here, and most of it makes a lot of sense. Still, the OP seems to be having some difficulty implementing the various suggestions, perhaps due to a lack of specialized tools.

Here's an easy way to get a rough idea of how much higher the nut slots are than the frets: get an old credit card, or anything similar, that has a rigid, straight edge. If the corners are rounded, cut one side so that you have a sharp corner that's 90 degrees or less. Rest the long side on the first couple of frets, slide that sharp corner up against the nut, and see where it falls relative to the slot for each string.

Unless you have a really trained eye and know what you're looking for, it will only give give you a rough idea, but it will definitely tell you something.

This is basically the start of how I set the slot heights. I use a metal fret rocker to span a couple frets, insert feeler gauges until they're snug, and then add the desired height for each string. I use the adjacent strings to hold the feeler gauges at that height against the nut, and stop when my file hits metal. It's pretty foolproof.

Sounds like something worth trying

 

[RickatAscap]

Are you sure that is the original nut from 1966? It looks mighty white. I know - dumb question - could it have been replaced lately?

Is the nut height correct?

Yes, it is, no question, in addition, the guitar has never been touched since I purchased it in 1966.

 

[Red Ryder]

Yes, it is, no question, in addition, the guitar has never been touched since I purchased it in 1966.

How could you have bought it in 1966 if your only 54 years old? Do you have a time machine?

 

[RickatAscap]

Ok

 

[RickatAscap]

How could you have bought it in 1966 if you’re only 54 years old? Do you have a time

Thank you

 

[RickatAscap]

I should change it, which I’ll do right now.