RickatAscap
Tele-Meister
That sounds like a very smart idea, thank you for that. All good on the support I get here, wonderful if I may be so bold
I believe my "66" Tele's nut, intonation problems on lower frets, what to do?
- Thread starter RickatAscap
- Start date
bebopbrain
Tele-Holic
Let's take the nut out of the equation; put a capo on the first fret. Can you tune up and get things to intonate properly?
That's a good test for the frets too. If they're worn, the guitar won't tune either.
cousinpaul
Friend of Leo's
I'm wondering about excessive relief. Guitar intonates at 12th fret/ sharp on lower frets? It would be easy to check
Boreas
Doctor of Teleocity
Indeed! What can be very vexing are frets with divots, and frets where the crown has simply been worn flat.
Freeman Keller
Doctor of Teleocity
I was curious about why a fifty year old guitar would have intonation issues now. Either it did before and you didn't notice or something has changed.
Its also important to define "intonation" and how we measure it and what we do to correct it.
Most of use use the term to describe the process of compensating the action to account for sharpening of the strings as they are fretted. It is a very complex physical problem as you will find if you go thru the links that I gave you before - it involves the fact that our musical system is not mathmatically correct (so called even tempered scale), the fact that real strings don't follow the perfect model (they have stiffness), and the fact that as we fret a note we stretch the string and thus sharpen it. All of this is very well documented, again if you read the Mark French reference I gave you.
Most of us adjust our guitars, the process is called "intonating" or "compensating" by comparing the fretted octave note with the open string harmonic - ie compare the fretted 12th fret with the 12th fret harmonic. The fretted note will be sharp, we "compensate" by moving the break point of the saddle farther from the nut. The amount we move it depends on string parameter, it can be calculated.
This is adequate for most guitar players but some folks are very sensitive to their instrument not being in tune with itself. That is where all the Gary Magliari stuff comes in. I doubt that you've read it but again, its all there. The first few frets do play out of tune . In fact it is ironic that the better you make the 12th fret the worse the first few will be. However there are methods for compensating the nut end of the fretboard and at least making it better.
Some things that can cause a properly intonated guitar to change are - the saddles have moved (duh), the action has changed (since it depends on how much you stretch the strings), the strings have changed (intonation depends on string parameter - diameter, material, wrap, core construction). All of the factors that affect action (relief, nut and saddle heights) affect intonation Having the guitar refretted can influence it. Even the way you play can have a big affect.
So it would be very helpful to know how you are measuring intonation, what values you are measuring (frequency in hz, number of cents a note is sharp or flat) and exactly what has been done to the guitar.
RickatAscap
Tele-Meister
Well, first I want to thank you for the time you took, sharing those links with me, all of which I need to study, and spend some time with, to get the maximum benefit from, for I sense there’s some very important information there. As for the way in which I intonate my guitars, Primarily I first intonate the strings at the 12th fret, the distance between the 12th fret and the nut, should be equidistant to the length of the 12th fret to the saddle, minus the measurement of the string your intonating. All of my 12 fret strings are in perfect intonation, it’s when I go down on my neck, anywhere from the second to the fifth fret is where I can’t seen to lock it in.
I’m working with those links you sent, there’s alot of good knowledge there, so much so, that I’m considering learning more about a membership, great stuff, for which I thank you.
RickatAscap
Tele-Meister
In addition, in asking why a fifty year old guitar could develop intonation problems, I could write a book on how that can happen, I think the question is, what factor led to the intonation problems, then we have something to work with, at least that’s the way I see it. There are so many factors as you know, could be I need to crown my frets, could be a heavier gauge string and not accounting for it initially. I’m not a luthier, but I’ve been playing seriously for over 50 years, so one notices even the slightest of changes. Thank you for your helpful messages, and those links are simply filled with great stuff.
RickatAscap
Tele-Meister
What you say is so correct, there is no definitive, or perfect way to address the issue, the links you dsahred with me offer perhaps the most insightful look into moving forward. The thing is, I hear everything, and rarely do I hear a perfectly compensated/intonated guitar, even the very slightest or just a few cents out, sounds awful to me, amd I cant seem to get around it. My other guitars I have no problems with, its my Tele, at first I thought. it might be the three saddle bridge, yet, it intonates perfectly on the upper frets. After years of trying to address this, I'm going to work on a new nut, and start fresh. I imagine I'll need to sppend a great deal of time working on the nut, and learning where and how high it should sit in the pocket, along with the sloping the nut in the right way. Theres a lot to learn, yet I sense Garys information is priceless, and I'll work with that, and study it. For me, I'll have to go over it a few times to really get all thats there,I think it'll be a good investment. Ive booked marked his work. I thank you for that, I sense you have alot of knowledge in this area, or at least more than most, which I appreciate. You questioned how a 50 year old guitar cold have intonation problems, would you be kind enough to elaborate on that. At first, I wasn't sure if you were serious, now I sense you were, and I would like to know a little more about that if you have the time.
Thanks for your help.
Rick
Freeman Keller
Doctor of Teleocity
What I was asking very simply is (assuming you've owned this guitar for most of its life and that its truly a 1966 model and not some sort of reissue) the guitar is 56 years old. 1966 is the transition between pre CBS and CBS, and frankly I don't know all the issues that were going on at that time, but I'm assuming that it has played reasonably well in tune for much of its life. If that has changed, then something has changed. If it always sounded crappy then that is another deal - in that case take the measurements and do what needs to be done.
I listed things that can change and affect intonation. Out of tune problems in the first few frets have to do with fret locations (I assume they haven't moved unless it was refretted). The other big deal is that real strings are stiff, they don't want to bend or flex or vibrate right close to the nut. Normally this doesn't affect the open string or its fundamental frequency, but it affects all the upper partials making them sharp. Its called "inharmonicity" and that is covered in the literature. Changing the nut and or different gauge strings will affect this - again, were any of these things changed.
The fact that guitars do not play in tune with themselves is partially a fault of our tempered musical scales. With equal temperament all keys are out of tune by about the same amount. If you tend to play in one key all the time you can temper your tuning to bring the 3rd, 4th, 6th and other ratios more in tune, but you will make it worse for other keys. Again, the literature is full of long technical discussions about temperament - the nice thing is that its easy to experiment with.
Last, and far from least, a well made conventional nut will play in tune for most people, a few people will require something different here,. The Buzz Feiten system is a system of nut compensation - it is patented and should be done by a licensed tech. The information I gave you skirts the patent issues and talks about the theory. An interesting anecdote to the Magliari discussion is that Dan MacRostie has applied it to not only his mandolins but also some very valuable ones include a Loar signed F style (these babies sell for about 200K if you aren't familiar).
The picture of the nut in my last post is a generic compensated one which you can buy on evil-bay. I installed it for a friend, frankly I could tell no difference. Audiologists tell use that most people can't detect 5 cents difference between two notes - that is why I was asking what you were doing, how you were measuring it, what the measurements were.
I think we have beat this pretty bloody. Guitars are compromises, our western musical system is a compromise. Some people are more sensitive than others. Good luck with getting yours sorted out.
Frontier9
Friend of Leo's
Really, really sounds like the nut slots are not low enough.
Put a capo on the first fret - then see if the problem remains.
Put a capo on the first fret - then see if the problem remains.
Last edited:
RickatAscap
Tele-Meister
I’ve done that, I shave acquired some really good material to read over, I’ll study it, and see where it takes me.
Thanks
RickatAscap
Tele-Meister
I agree, I just want to thank you for taking the time, I’ll pour over that material which seems like a wealth of information, the guitar is most definitely a 66, and nothing has been altered in any way. I think there might have been some miscommunication going back and forth, I’m sorry for my part in it.
Thanks again
Mad Kiwi
Friend of Leo's
" I doubt that you've read it but again, its all there. The first few frets do play out of tune . In fact it is ironic that the better you make the 12th fret the worse the first few will be. However there are methods for compensating the nut end of the fretboard and at least making it better."
As said above, I too think you intonating to the 12 fret has upset the balance the guitar had previously.
None of my guitars intonate nicely in the first 3 frets, when I focus solely on the 0 and the 12th position. Especially the G and B string.
I believe this is normal and various solutions or workarounds have been offered, earvana nuts being one in particular...https://earvana.com/.
Also I think/thought fan fretted guitars work towards trying to resolve the problem. edit - But I see this might not be the case....
Most of all I think you are sensitive to it and in micro tuning to the 12th fret have upset the first few...try splitting the difference between the 1,2,3 and 12th intonation and your guitar will likely play as well as any other.
Good luck.
As said above, I too think you intonating to the 12 fret has upset the balance the guitar had previously.
None of my guitars intonate nicely in the first 3 frets, when I focus solely on the 0 and the 12th position. Especially the G and B string.
I believe this is normal and various solutions or workarounds have been offered, earvana nuts being one in particular...https://earvana.com/.
Also I think/thought fan fretted guitars work towards trying to resolve the problem. edit - But I see this might not be the case....
Most of all I think you are sensitive to it and in micro tuning to the 12th fret have upset the first few...try splitting the difference between the 1,2,3 and 12th intonation and your guitar will likely play as well as any other.
Good luck.
Last edited:
RickatAscap
Tele-Meister
With the capo on the first fret, absolutely everything is sharp, even the note n the 12th fret that were i n perfect tune, are sharp.
RickatAscap
Tele-Meister
I have read it, however, for me to comprehend it, I need to go over it a few times, thats just the way it is. I get theres alot of important information there, and I'll have to read through it a few times, thats just wehat I have to do to fully comprehend all thats there. I dont know why you would think I hadn't read it. Once again, I thank you for sharing that with me.
R
RickatAscap
Tele-Meister
That makes sense, I'll work with the first five frets, intonating it from there, not the twelfth .
Thanks
R
RickatAscap
Tele-Meister
I've decided to get a new nut, shave it down, for I sense thats where the problem lies. I usually intonate at the twelth fret, and I can do that with in 2 or 3 cents with my strobe. I'll work on the nut, for thats what I believe is the issue, I'll the frets should be crowned as well.
Thanks
RickatAscap
Tele-Meister
I'm going to buy Mark French's book, I've been going over the material, and I get some of it, theres a lot I need to learn before I can fully understand and utilize whats shared, I sense the book would be a better way for me at this time.Rick, you are probably correct that your guitar plays sharp in the first few frets - most do but most of us either can't hear it or ignore it. There are some things that can be done and Gary Magliari has present his work in several seminars for the Guild of American Lutherie. Unfortunately you need to be a member to access Gary's work but I'll give you a few links to wet you interest
INTONATION, TRADITIONAL COMPENSATION, & THE CATCH 22
www.luthiersforum.com
Another option is to buy a copy of Mark French's book Technology of the Guitar - its explained nicely there.
And I thank you once again for all of your thoughts, I rteally do.
R
Wyzsard
Poster Extraordinaire
Option
goldtonemusicgroup.com
ZS-7F Slotted Replacement Nut for Guitars (Common on Fender)
The Zero Glide Replacement Nut System borrows the "zero fret" concept to reduce string contact in the nut by up to 93%, increasing tuning stability, playability, and open string tone. It only takes a few minutes to install with absolutely no permanent alteration to your instrument. For Fender...
goldtonemusicgroup.com
