I believe my "66" Tele's nut, intonation problems on lower frets, what to do?

[RickatAscap]

I've been having intonation problems on the lower frets of my 66 Tele. I have perfect intonation at the twelfth fret, yet, anything below the 5th, I'm unable to address on my own so far. I belief the problem comes from the nut, and I'm not sure on how to proceed. The nut on the guitar is the original nut, and its held its own for quite a long time
The nut that Fender sells for their pre 70's Tele's measures

• 1.650" (42 mm) wide

Where as my nut, measuring with a caliper comes in at 41mm, clearly I could sand it, yet its notched, and I wonder if this could be an issue.
Any thoughts?

 

[ElJay370]

Unless the nut slot’s actual location in the neck has been moved or altered, I doubt it’s the source of your intonation problems.

Is the neck seated in the pocket properly?

Are the first few frets extremely worn?

Has the bridge been moved or replaced with a non standard type?

These would be the first few things I would check. Pics would be helpful.

 

[RickatAscap]

Unless the nut slot’s actual location in the neck has been moved or altered, I doubt it’s the source of your intonation problems.

Is the neck seated in the pocket properly?

Are the first few frets extremely worn?

Has the bridge been moved or replaced with a non standard type?

These would be the first few things I would check. Pics would be helpful.

Thank you for your quick reponse, much appreciated. The neck is seated properly, and intonation is perfect 12 on upward, yet the lower frets is where I'm have a problem. Heres a pick of the nut.

 

[RickatAscap]

I wanted to add, the first few frets are fine, although, I'm certainly open to anything at this point. I did add another 3 saddle bridge, which adds a slight amount of help in intonation on an individual string, nothing like the six saddle bridge, yet it intonates fine elsewhere on the guitar.

 

[RickatAscap]

Thank you for your quick reponse, much appreciated. The neck is seated properly, and intonation is perfect 12 on upward, yet the lower frets is where I'm have a problem. Heres a pick of the nut.
View attachment 1075791
View attachment 1075791

 

[Antoon]

On a guitar I had, it turned out to be a crooked bridge plate. Only after I replaced that it was okay. Are the bridge screws drilled right? Does the scale length measure up correctly on both the high and low E string? It could be the nut I guess, if the point of string contact within the slot is not at the fretboard side but on the headstock side..

BTW on every guitar with an unwound G string, the G string sounds slightly sharp in a chord on the lower frets. Once you notice that you cannot 'unhear' it. I learned to live with it and tune my G string very slightly flat.

 

[Telenator]

You have 1 of 2 possible problems.

1) Your frets are worn and need to be re-crowned for the guitar to tune properly on the lower frets.
I am assuming that the notes are sharp below the 5th fret. That would be typical.

2) The nut slot is just too far from the first fret. happens all the time.

This condition will cause any guitar to not play open position chords in tune.

You can buy and install a compensated nut, or have a skilled tech do it for you. This solve the problem.

If the lower frets are sharp, I promise you, this has nothing to do with the saddles. It's the position of the nut.

 

[RickatAscap]

You have 1 of 2 possible problems.

1) Your frets are worn and need to be re-crowned for the guitar to tune properly on the lower frets.
I am assuming that the notes are sharp below the 5th fret. That would be typical.

2) The nut slot is just too far from the first fret. happens all the time.

This condition will cause any guitar to not play open position chords in tune.

You can buy and install a compensated nut, or have a skilled tech do it for you. This solve the problem.

If the lower frets are sharp, I promise you, this has nothing to do with the saddles. It's the position of the nut.

Thanks,
Yes, the lower notes are sharp, while notes on the high end of the neck intonate perfectly. I was considering purchasing a new nut, although I've never sanded a nut before, I imagine that might be necessary. As for the frets, that could very well be why this is happening as well. I should have my frets crowned. Quite honestly, I dont like bringing this guitar in for service, if I dont know the person, I'm certianly not going to bring it into Guitar Center. The last person that handled this guitar was Sadowsky, since he moved on, I no longer have a tech in NYC I trust.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Rick, you are probably correct that your guitar plays sharp in the first few frets - most do but most of us either can't hear it or ignore it. There are some things that can be done and Gary Magliari has present his work in several seminars for the Guild of American Lutherie. Unfortunately you need to be a member to access Gary's work but I'll give you a few links to wet you interest

INTONATION, TRADITIONAL COMPENSATION, & THE CATCH 22

www.luthiersforum.com

Web Extras American Lutherie #116 – Winter 2013 – Guild of American Luthiers

luth.org

https://luth.org/wp-content/uploads/AL116_extras_MagliariFretComp.pdf

Another option is to buy a copy of Mark French's book Technology of the Guitar - its explained nicely there.

 

[RickatAscap]

On a guitar I had, it turned out to be a crooked bridge plate. Only after I replaced that it was okay. Are the bridge screws drilled right? Does the scale length measure up correctly on both the high and low E string? It could be the nut I guess, if the point of string contact within the slot is not at the fretboard side but on the headstock side..

BTW on every guitar with an unwound G string, the G string sounds slightly sharp in a chord on the lower frets. Once you notice that you cannot 'unhear' it. I learned to live with it and tune my G string very slightly flat.

The point of contact on the nut is most definitely leaning towards the headstock, not on the fretboard side. Initially, I thought it was the nut, which I’ll address, but I might crown the frets as well.
Thanks for your help and suppot

 

[Telenator]

There are several good guys in NYC. There's a guy on this forum, IPLAYLOUD, who would know of some good guys.

You can also try 30th Street Guitars. They deal in vintage instruments.

 

[RickatAscap]

Thanks for that, I know them at 30th street, and they certainly are reasonable. I often mix the up with Rogue music, who I believe moved upstate.

 

[KokoTele]

The 3 most common causes of sharp notes in the lower registers are (in order)

1. Pressing the strings too hard
2. Nut slots not angled down toward the tuners enough
3. Nut slots not low enough

4th is the frets being worn or not crowned properly.

The slot being in the wrong position is a distant 5th or 6th.

It's worth the investment to pay someone with a good reputation to diagnose the problem and make a new nut if necessary. The prefab nuts are... fine. But the odds of you making much improvement with one are low.

 

[Boreas]

Thanks,
Yes, the lower notes are sharp, while notes on the high end of the neck intonate perfectly. I was considering purchasing a new nut, although I've never sanded a nut before, I imagine that might be necessary. As for the frets, that could very well be why this is happening as well. I should have my frets crowned. Quite honestly, I dont like bringing this guitar in for service, if I dont know the person, I'm certianly not going to bring it into Guitar Center. The last person that handled this guitar was Sadowsky, since he moved on, I no longer have a tech in NYC I trust.

Are you sure that is the original nut from 1966? It looks mighty white. I know - dumb question - could it have been replaced lately?

Is the nut height correct?

 

[RickatAscap]

Are you sure that is the original nut from 1966? It looks mighty white. I know - dumb question - could it have been replaced lately?

Is the nut height correct?

Absolutely, that’s the only thing I am certain of. as for the nut height, I can’t be sure about that, but that is something I will look into, the nut seems to slope downward somewhat to the tuners, not to the fretboard.

 

[RickatAscap]

The 3 most common causes of sharp notes in the lower registers are (in order)

1. Pressing the strings too hard
2. Nut slots not angled down toward the tuners enough
3. Nut slots not low enough

4th is the frets being worn or not crowned properly.

The slot being in the wrong position is a distant 5th or 6th.

It's worth the investment to pay someone with a good reputation to diagnose the problem and make a new nut if necessary. The prefab nuts are... fine. But the odds of you making much improvement with one are low.

Regarding pressing the strings too hard, I don’t think there’s a problem there, the slots do slope down to the tuners

 

[RickatAscap]

Are you sure that is the original nut from 1966? It looks mighty white. I know - dumb question - could it have been replaced lately?

Is the nut height correct?

I’m certain about the nut, it hasn’t been changed, the height, I’ll have to check that out right away, the slots do slope down towards the tuners, I can’t imagine the problem being there, as for the frets, they certainly could be crowned, that’s something I’ll handle, I’ve already ordered a new nut, I’m getting there
Thanks

 

[Boreas]

I’m certain about the nut, it hasn’t been changed, the height, I’ll have to check that out right away, the slots do slope down towards the tuners, I can’t imagine the problem being there, as for the frets, they certainly could be crowned, that’s something I’ll handle, I’ve already ordered a new nut, I’m getting there
Thanks

The slots should slope toward the tuners, so you should be OK there.

Did this problem start suddenly?

 

[RickatAscap]

The slots should slope toward the tuners, so you should be OK there.

Did this problem start suddenly?

No, this has been a slow gradual thing, once I learned about intonating guitars, for I work on my guitars. Once I learned how to intonate a guitar relating to the bridge, the nut, and crowning, is my next stop. on this learning expedition. I've ordered a nut, I haope with my research and study, I'll be able to det that up correctly, than. on to crowning. I'll get there.
Thanks
Rick

 

[Telenator]

No, this has been a slow gradual thing, once I learned about intonating guitars, for I work on my guitars. Once I learned how to intonate a guitar relating to the bridge, the nut, and crowning, is my next stop. on this learning expedition. I've ordered a nut, I haope with my research and study, I'll be able to det that up correctly, than. on to crowning. I'll get there.
Thanks
Rick

There have times when I had to fix something quickly and didn't have time to craft a new nut. I simply popped the old nut out of the slot and cut a shim from a very thin piece of veneer to raise the old nut in the slot. Saves a ton of work and performs just as well as a brand new nut if you do it correctly. You can even use this method as a test to see if this solves your problem. Just don't glue the nut back in if you're replacing the nut altogether.
This approach will give you a chance to practice the repair before committing to it.
Hint: Use a brand new Exacto blade, or razor blade, and heat it, to cut the lacquer/poly that seals the nut ends in the slot. If you don't, you stand a good chance of chipping the finish over a larger area.