How to play loud, what am I doing wrong?

[Wooly Fox]

I made a discovery today. First time in ages I had no landlord in the house above my basement suite and no neighbours to annoy. Therefore the answer was turn both of my amps on, Quilter master maxed into my 2x12, my custom 50W tube head also master volume maxed into my 1x12 to see what it sounded like. Gain on both was around 9 o'clock so still clean.

The cleans were very pleasant once I dialed the volume in on the guitar (around 5-6) but as soon as I hit my OD pedal on and turned up the guitar volume to 9.5, the volume lift was massive (obviously) but the EQ went awry. My guitar sounded boomy and not pleasant until I turn the guitar volume back down to 5-6 but then my OD wasn't clipping as it's very volume pot sensitive (which I like). I was using my Gibson with 2 HB so I imagine hitting the pedal and preamp hard.

I understand the volume lift was due to the headroom on both amps being available so it will get louder but I don't understand the change in EQ.

I thought my bass EQ must be too high, tweaked the bass to the "point of most change" on both amps without touching the gain or master volume. Still didn't work well when I turned up the guitar volume to 9.5, just this ungodly bottom end like being plugged into a bass amp and all the note definition gone. Even the high strings just sounded muddy. Was probably hitting 90db or so (phone app db meter seems to max out at 90db) so near gig volume. It wasn't the nice compressed OD I was previously getting at the lower master volume and higher guitar volume.

Other things I have tried, turned the headroom down on both amps. The Quilter master control is also a headroom control so turned it down to 50W which is noon on the dial and my tube amp to 7W just to see if that fixed the issue.

So the question is, what was I hearing and what do I do about it if I want to use fuzz or OD pedals which are guitar volume sensitive? I can't run the guitar on 5-6 and get my OD pedal to sound acceptable at that volume, it needs to see 9.5 or full open volume control.

Speakers used: JBL D120F in the 1x12, EV 12L and Vintage 30 in the 2x12.

 

[FenderGyrl]

Hmmm,
I usually follow this:
Guitar with Tone on 10
Volume on 9
Gives a slight compression.
DBL Humbuckers = Use Middle Position
Strats = Use Middle Pick Up Only

Amps= Bass/Mid/Treb all on 5
Pre Amp Gain on 7
Main Volume on 5
If a Master Volume is there = 7

Start playing ...
Set Amp Volume by increasing in Reverse = Master, then Main.then Gain.
Then fine tune the tone.

Then I set my pedals.
Again, I will set pedal Volumes first, then adjust the tone, gain.

If I'm goosing a Fuzz with a Boost, I work from the last pedal in the chain to the first pedal .
FG

 

[FenderGyrl]

Also...
Speakers need to be broken in.
New speakers that haven't be pushed sound lousy until they have been goosed for a while. Then they develop a sweet spot.

 

[Wooly Fox]

Further investigation last night using my CS '52 Tele to take out the humbucker mid push.

I found the 2x12 cab buzz starts around the B on the low E string therefore it's a resonance interaction in the cab. It's an 1980s G&K 212HS so pretty solidly built unit but the previous owner added a removable panel to make it a closed back. It's the removable panel buzzing against the frame. If I push the panel in one of the corners, it stops buzzing.

Now I can run it as an open back but I generally prefer closed back cabs for the push. Going to try it out without the back panel today, try different amps into it and see if I can tame the muddiness. I'll be humbucker less for a while as I am trading that guitar for a Matchless DC30 (super excited for that!)

 

[sax4blues]

I'm wondering what the relation of room size and listening distance will have to volume? Is the room becoming saturated with sound, especially low end. And how far are you standing from the amp? How different would those high volume settings sound in club sized room and listening from 20-30 feet away?

 

[String Tree]

I made a discovery today. First time in ages I had no landlord in the house above my basement suite and no neighbours to annoy. Therefore the answer was turn both of my amps on, Quilter master maxed into my 2x12, my custom 50W tube head also master volume maxed into my 1x12 to see what it sounded like. Gain on both was around 9 o'clock so still clean.

The cleans were very pleasant once I dialed the volume in on the guitar (around 5-6) but as soon as I hit my OD pedal on and turned up the guitar volume to 9.5, the volume lift was massive (obviously) but the EQ went awry. My guitar sounded boomy and not pleasant until I turn the guitar volume back down to 5-6 but then my OD wasn't clipping as it's very volume pot sensitive (which I like). I was using my Gibson with 2 HB so I imagine hitting the pedal and preamp hard.

I understand the volume lift was due to the headroom on both amps being available so it will get louder but I don't understand the change in EQ.

I thought my bass EQ must be too high, tweaked the bass to the "point of most change" on both amps without touching the gain or master volume. Still didn't work well when I turned up the guitar volume to 9.5, just this ungodly bottom end like being plugged into a bass amp and all the note definition gone. Even the high strings just sounded muddy. Was probably hitting 90db or so (phone app db meter seems to max out at 90db) so near gig volume. It wasn't the nice compressed OD I was previously getting at the lower master volume and higher guitar volume.

Other things I have tried, turned the headroom down on both amps. The Quilter master control is also a headroom control so turned it down to 50W which is noon on the dial and my tube amp to 7W just to see if that fixed the issue.

So the question is, what was I hearing and what do I do about it if I want to use fuzz or OD pedals which are guitar volume sensitive? I can't run the guitar on 5-6 and get my OD pedal to sound acceptable at that volume, it needs to see 9.5 or full open volume control.

Speakers used: JBL D120F in the 1x12, EV 12L and Vintage 30 in the 2x12.

IMHO- That kind of Volume belongs in a Concert Hall or, Outdoors.
DB'a are all about Pressure Waves.
In a small(er) Room, they just get in each others way, so to speak.

Keep it Loud far as long as you can.
A lot of people would LOVE to be able to crank it up like you can.
YEP!!!

 

[Killing Floor]

With great volume comes great responsibility. First, check to see if your knobs are dimed.

I turn the guitar volume back down to 5-6

This is one of my first concerns.

Check your EQ and also think about where your amp sits in the room. Maybe that “coupling” is the cause of the boomies. But start by making sure nothing is on 5.

 

[old school fender]

Depends on the room. Standing waves, which mainly affect low frequencies, in rooms which are primarily square can cause excessive bass frequency build up.

 

[2HBStrat]

I made a discovery today. First time in ages I had no landlord in the house above my basement suite and no neighbours to annoy. Therefore the answer was turn both of my amps on, Quilter master maxed into my 2x12, my custom 50W tube head also master volume maxed into my 1x12 to see what it sounded like. Gain on both was around 9 o'clock so still clean.

The cleans were very pleasant once I dialed the volume in on the guitar (around 5-6) but as soon as I hit my OD pedal on and turned up the guitar volume to 9.5, the volume lift was massive (obviously) but the EQ went awry. My guitar sounded boomy and not pleasant until I turn the guitar volume back down to 5-6 but then my OD wasn't clipping as it's very volume pot sensitive (which I like). I was using my Gibson with 2 HB so I imagine hitting the pedal and preamp hard.

I understand the volume lift was due to the headroom on both amps being available so it will get louder but I don't understand the change in EQ.

I thought my bass EQ must be too high, tweaked the bass to the "point of most change" on both amps without touching the gain or master volume. Still didn't work well when I turned up the guitar volume to 9.5, just this ungodly bottom end like being plugged into a bass amp and all the note definition gone. Even the high strings just sounded muddy. Was probably hitting 90db or so (phone app db meter seems to max out at 90db) so near gig volume. It wasn't the nice compressed OD I was previously getting at the lower master volume and higher guitar volume.

Other things I have tried, turned the headroom down on both amps. The Quilter master control is also a headroom control so turned it down to 50W which is noon on the dial and my tube amp to 7W just to see if that fixed the issue.

So the question is, what was I hearing and what do I do about it if I want to use fuzz or OD pedals which are guitar volume sensitive? I can't run the guitar on 5-6 and get my OD pedal to sound acceptable at that volume, it needs to see 9.5 or full open volume control.

Speakers used: JBL D120F in the 1x12, EV 12L and Vintage 30 in the 2x12.

(No offense but) get rid of the Quilter, and two, my clean tone and OD tone are TOTALLY different. Tone controls and judicious use of the drive, volume and tone control on your OD pedal(s) is a must.

 

[Refugee]

Turn OD pedal gain down and turn level pretty much dimed. Just try it.

 

[2HBStrat]

Also...it's not a law that your guitar's volume has to be on 10 all the time, either.

 

[Mjark]

Turn the bass down to zero.

 

[VintageSG]

Are the speakers at ground level, parallel to the floor?
An angled stand is a boon. Even a beer/milk crate to stand the amp on can help.
If the speaker is firing 'straight up and down' a small room, try moving it to a corner so it fires across.
Finesse the tone stack. Open E and tweak the bass until it doesn't boom. Open g and tweak mids, An a at the fifth fret of the e is good for getting an idea for treble.
E minor cowboy chord, then barre it up the neck to make final tweaks.
That's how I used to set my sound in cellar practice 'rooms' Fletcher-Munson plays havoc in small rooms. Low volume EQ <> flat-stick fun EQ

 

[Wooly Fox]

Thanks all for the comments.

The Quilter is my "backup" amp, I normally use the 50W tube head on the 2x12 and my Garnet Lil' Rock on the 1x12. I just had the Quilter out so decided that would do. I plan to switch to the Matchless and the 50W head for my wet dry rig. For rehearsals, my band uses a decent studio space with sound treatment.

I also think my cab placement in the room isn't ideal. Both sit in the corner but flat to the wall so one cab is perpendicular to the other. Room is square with a sofa next to the one of the cabs (the 2x12). I also get resonance from the blinds and sliding patio doors which is more irritating than an issue. It's not like I'm recording.

The 2x12 is an angled cab so the speakers are at a 20-30 degree angle pointing up to the ceiling, the 1x12 is standard flat facing out.

If I were to stay on my rental, I could reduce the standing wave impact by hanging a sheet on the ceiling and put up acoustic panels in the walls etc.

 

[Wooly Fox]

Update:
Taking the back panel off to make it an open back seems to have solved the issue with the resonance as expected. It's also helped the EQ quite a bit, can run the amp pretty loud without the muddiness coming through, even with humbuckers.

I think I'll leave it open back for rehearsals this weekend and see if it works better in a mix than a closed back.

 

[Timbresmith1]

I made a discovery today. First time in ages I had no landlord in the house above my basement suite and no neighbours to annoy. Therefore the answer was turn both of my amps on, Quilter master maxed into my 2x12, my custom 50W tube head also master volume maxed into my 1x12 to see what it sounded like. Gain on both was around 9 o'clock so still clean.

The cleans were very pleasant once I dialed the volume in on the guitar (around 5-6) but as soon as I hit my OD pedal on and turned up the guitar volume to 9.5, the volume lift was massive (obviously) but the EQ went awry. My guitar sounded boomy and not pleasant until I turn the guitar volume back down to 5-6 but then my OD wasn't clipping as it's very volume pot sensitive (which I like). I was using my Gibson with 2 HB so I imagine hitting the pedal and preamp hard.

I understand the volume lift was due to the headroom on both amps being available so it will get louder but I don't understand the change in EQ.

I thought my bass EQ must be too high, tweaked the bass to the "point of most change" on both amps without touching the gain or master volume. Still didn't work well when I turned up the guitar volume to 9.5, just this ungodly bottom end like being plugged into a bass amp and all the note definition gone. Even the high strings just sounded muddy. Was probably hitting 90db or so (phone app db meter seems to max out at 90db) so near gig volume. It wasn't the nice compressed OD I was previously getting at the lower master volume and higher guitar volume.

Other things I have tried, turned the headroom down on both amps. The Quilter master control is also a headroom control so turned it down to 50W which is noon on the dial and my tube amp to 7W just to see if that fixed the issue.

So the question is, what was I hearing and what do I do about it if I want to use fuzz or OD pedals which are guitar volume sensitive? I can't run the guitar on 5-6 and get my OD pedal to sound acceptable at that volume, it needs to see 9.5 or full open volume control.

Speakers used: JBL D120F in the 1x12, EV 12L and Vintage 30 in the 2x12.

Room resonance may have something to do with it

 

[58Bassman]

What OD pedal is this? Many reduce the low end, but some of the more recent ones don't, as well as the modded pedals.

How much louder does the sound WITH OD need to be than the clean sound? The OD pedal's Level control should be set so it won't be so much louder that it blows you out of the room. You can also do what many do- set the OD level as high as you would need as a maximum and back off the guitar's volume control so you can clean it up- that way, you don't need to go anywhere to step on the OD pedal's switch.

As mentioned, the sound in a small room won't be the same in a large room- ever put a stereo outside and wonder where the sound went? The walls, ceiling and floor are all reflecting the sound and at some frequencies, the standing waves will beat you to death at high SPL, where they weren't even audible at lower volumes.

 

[middy]

Again, as much as we would like to be a rock star, these amps are designed for jazz combos (15 watt 1x12) or loud dance bands (40 watt 2x12) in dance halls full of people. You want to crank it up, get a Champ and some earplugs.

 

[TurtlesnTanlines]

A. Needs space to breathe. You’re likely getting massive reverb buildup in the bottom end from your walls and furniture. Without acoustic treatment you’re creating just one big wall of sound in that low mid range.

B. My older closed back Blackstar HT40 had this issue when cranked. The new ones eq’d that frequency out…yes, they sound less ballsy, but fit in a mix perfectly.

 

[Wooly Fox]

All valid points.

I run my OD pedals with gain off or less than 9 o'clock. I find it too buzzy and compressed otherwise. Was trying out my Matchless DC-30 yesterday in rehearsal, full power, master off and using the EF86 channel for my OD. That was loud even at 8 o'clock on the dial to how I normally practice. Was a very controllable driven tone using my guitar volume and very easy to play. Only used my boost pedal and fuzz for the sustain. Didn't have any boominess or ugly frequencies, even though I was playing in an untreated basement.

My home practice volume is set to be loud enough to not hear the strings as I strike them. I wouldn't call it loud but it gives you the feeling of guitar feedback if you stand close enough to the cabinet.

Overall I think the room and my amp placement are the main contributing factors here. The resonance I'm getting from the walls and sliding doors as well as being flat to the corner isn't helping the acoustics.

More experimentation is required and having more experience playing loudly to understand where I need to make changes to my playing and rig.