How long is a Tonemaster amp designed to last? FACTS ONLY.

[Blrfl]

Interesting. And to think that mil-spec has always been considered the best ...

Without writing a diatribe on the subject: Mil-spec has become a catch-all for things meeting one or more standards established by the Department of Defense. Civilian companies have latched onto it as a marketing tool aimed at people who are willing to believe that if it's military, it has to be top-drawer. (I'm not bagging on anyone here; marketing is pretty much a game of finding your audience's soft spot and exploiting it.)

MIL-STD-810 is the poster child for this. 810 is a set of about 30 test methods for everything from pressure to temperature to vibration to fungus resistance. I have a brick in the garage would probably pass the entire battery and could be sold as "meets MIL-STD-810." That's great and all, but it doesn't make the material fit for every purpose.

 

[maxvintage]

Do you use their cabs? Their cabs seem a bit "out there" to me.

(This one has two 10" side-firing drivers in addition to the 5" one in front.)

I had one of their cabs, a round down-firing cab, that was destroyed in a flood. I was never happy with the sound

 

[11 Gauge]

Without writing a diatribe on the subject: Mil-spec has become a catch-all for things meeting one or more standards established by the Department of Defense. Civilian companies have latched onto it as a marketing tool aimed at people who are willing to believe that if it's military, it has to be top-drawer. (I'm not bagging on anyone here; marketing is pretty much a game of finding your audience's soft spot and exploiting it.)

MIL-STD-810 is the poster child for this. 810 is a set of about 30 test methods for everything from pressure to temperature to vibration to fungus resistance. I have an brick in the garage would probably pass the entire battery and could be sold as "meets MIL-STD-810." That's great and all, but it doesn't make the material fit for every purpose.

Oh, believe me, I totally get that. I was actually trying to be a little bit snarky about the use of such terms.

The last time I can personally remember buying something because of the use of that term would have been a Crutchfield car amp in the 80's. It turned out to be no more durable than any other car amp that I owned. I guess that made them all mil-spec, right?

Anyway, I roll my own PCBs for use in pedals, and the only adjective I can find myself personally honestly using is 'overbuilt', because that's the process that I apply. I could easily match the skinnier traces and thinner phenolic or glass epoxy boards used by more than a few of the big companies, but it's an easy addition (for me) at both design time and build time.

 

[Beachbum]

 

[middy]

That's kind of dumb. A tube can blow and take out a bunch of parts in a tube amp.

Then again, the smaller things get, the more age can effect them.

 

[middy]

I am intrigued by the Fender Tone Master line, however, a serious concern of mine is their longevity. I am a gigging musician and have been playing several vintage amps for the past 15 years; they are used regularly and have required very minimal maintenance over the years - ALL electronics will need maintenance at some point in their operating life.

My concern lies with the dependability of the the Tone Master amps, ironically, Fender markets that as the selling point of the amps. In one video they actually referenced how musicians take two tube amps to a gig in case one fails; I am no different...and I would still take two amps even if my main amp was a Tone Master.

The vintage amps I play have already lasted a lifetime before me, they've proven themselves. I don't understand how a new piece of digital technology can out perform something that has been around half a century or longer. Won't the Tone Master amps still need their pots and jacks sprayed out every few years? So, how long are these Tone Master amps design to "last"? - it better last way longer than their 90 day limited warranty! And when one fails, can it be serviced or it is disposed of and another one purchased? Are the Tone Master amps made to be family heirlooms? Will it last for my lifetime and my children can grow up playing it or is it what's "cool" now?

I am seeking factual information on the life expectancy of the Tone Master amps so please be objective with your responses and refrain from discussing your opinions about the amps. Thank you!

I'm not going to read this whole thread.

The tone master amps are not heirloom quality electronics, whatever that means. They are eminently practical and built to a very competitive price point for what they are. The electronics are firmware and extremely extensive code. You would have to swap out the CPUs, memory, etc to repair them and if they aren't available there's nothing to be done but convert the shell to a different amp.

In 50 years, I guarantee it won't work, and some kid with a multimeter is not going to be able to fix it, but it will be easy to stick whatever newfangled much better sounding modeler and micro power amp into it.

 

[Beachbum]

That's kind of dumb. A tube can blow and take out a bunch of parts in a tube amp.

Then again, the smaller things get, the more age can effect them.

I don't agree or disagree with what he's saying. My take on it is at the price of the amp it's not that big of a risk. Much like my crapped out Blues Jr. that went South after 5 years even if I had paid the current $700 price of a new one my cost would have been a little less than $12 a month for the use of it until it died. With the cost of the repairs aproaching it's used value I'd be just as well off hitting up Craigs list for a used one. These days tube amps can be expensive to repair as well and depending on the value of the amp repairs may often not be worth doing. The problem is that us musicians tend to fall in love with our gear. That's why these clones are designed and marketed to bring out the nostalgia in us. But the real deal is that just like autombiles and home appliances after some years they have to be replaced. I'm OK with that as long as my investment gets me an equal amount of usage.

 

[Bobbyoso]

"Facts only"? The only folks who can offer "facts" are probably very few (less than 6-8 people), and they would be comprised entirely of the Tonemaster project team within Fender; most likely, the program/project mgr, chief engineer, and a couple others might have this visibility.

Everyone else would be offering conjecture, opinion, and most likely vitriol. So asking a question like this of the internet is like asking for "facts only" legal advice from your local barber.

Plus, assuming there were historical data available regarding Tonemaster longevity (and since I'd bet that >90% of them are still functional, any data available would only tell 10% of the story), there are things like means, medians, standard deviation etc. that provide context.

For example: if the TMDR was designed to a given planned obsolescence of 15 years for example, and 85% of them died within 3 months of that 15 year mark, that would be very different than if 40% of them died in the first year, 40% of them lived for over 30 years, and the remaining 20% died at approximately that engineered 15 year mark.

All this to say, the correct answer to a "facts only" planned obsolescence question is twofold--1) unless you are asking it of the engineering team members who know, there won't be "facts" anywhere in the responses you recieve, and 2) even if you got a response from the team's senior PM or engineer, depending upon actual amp mortality data (which would only be complete if all TM amps were no longer produced AND all had died), a 15-year failure design might result in many different real-world failure distributions.

So, asking the wrong folks, and even asking the right folks and getting the right answer might result in very different distributions of real-world failure rates. And as noted previously, until the TM program is finished, and every TM amp has died, we won't have those "facts" either.

 

[TheCheapGuitarist]

I have some practical experience that may help. Over the past 20 years of repairing electronics, the #1 issue with digital amps I've seen (Line 6, Behringer, Fender Cybertwin/G-Dec/Super Champ XD, etc.) is the digital rotary encoder. This control wearing out and failing is the number one reason digital amps die.

These rotary encoders are non-robust design, originally used in test equipment. They do not stand up to the heavy use/abuse dished out by guitar players. And what makes this problem particularly frustrating is most makers including Fender use a proprietary SMT or PCB through-hole control that has no 'generic' replacement part. When it goes glitchy or breaks, the only way to repair it at the component level is to find the same model amp that died for another reason and cannibalize the part.

That is why I no longer own one of these amps.

That knob on my Zoom G5n is becoming flaky. I didn't abuse it or anything. It still works, sort of..

 

[Peegoo]

That knob on my Zoom G5n is becoming flaky. I didn't abuse it or anything. It still works, sort of..

Yeah, they last longer if you're gentle with 'em, but they still wear and fail because they're not made very well.

 

[Cpb2020]

This raises an economic and environmental issue that has been a pet peeve of mine for many years.

We manufacture / buy largely disposable objects that end up in a landfill. I call it the Walmart generation.

There are ways to make objects that are superior, with replaceable parts, that will last longer and not have a negative impact on the economy (as they’ll cost more, but will last longer, and repair people would have work). Plus we would avoid sending lots to landfills.

But no one listens to me.

 

[ucnick]

They were introduced in late September of 2019. If you want facts only . . . most of them last about a year and a half and possibly longer.

Been using my TMTR for going on 3 years now, no issues, love it...

 

[Blrfl]

There are ways to make objects that are superior, with replaceable parts, that will last longer and not have a negative impact on the economy (as they’ll cost more, but will last longer, and repair people would have work).

And people will complain bitterly that the $800 device should really only cost a buck fifty.

There is some of that going on already. Digital has reached the point where platform products are very practical. The Helix and Kemper Profiler are great examples of that: they've been around a long time and have seen major improvements with no changes to the hardware.

Kemper went a step further and put all of the processing on a card that can be swapped out for something more-powerful later on. Products built that way could help keep the chassis around for decades while minimizing what goes into landfills. We can have more products like that; the market has to stand up and demand it.

 

[KyAnne]

It's a known Fact that equipment is designed to fail. "When" is another wonder" for the consumer. You can rest assured that the chips, transistors, resistors and caps used on earth for ANYTHING are nowhere near the quality of the ones used on the Mars Rover. All equipment from amps to dishwashers are made that way. It's how they get consumers to buy again or pay repairs. Quality for consumers is a thing of the past. Especially for home building and cheap imported products. $500K homes? Check 'em out sometime. Embarrassing craftsmanship.

 

[Mike M]

And people will complain bitterly that the $800 device should really only cost a buck fifty.

There is some of that going on already. Digital has reached the point where platform products are very practical. The Helix and Kemper Profiler are great examples of that: they've been around a long time and have seen major improvements with no changes to the hardware.

Kemper went a step further and put all of the processing on a card that can be swapped out for something more-powerful later on. Products built that way could help keep the chassis around for decades while minimizing what goes into landfills. We can have more products like that; the market has to stand up and demand it.

There are products I have purchased, that even though I loved them, the fact that I paid too much for them gnaws and bothers me, and in the end keeps me from really enjoying them.

Even though I feel the TM line is pretty pricey, I have never looked back at what I paid for them, and am left with only the joy they bring.

 

[middy]

This raises an economic and environmental issue that has been a pet peeve of mine for many years.

We manufacture / buy largely disposable objects that end up in a landfill. I call it the Walmart generation.

There are ways to make objects that are superior, with replaceable parts, that will last longer and not have a negative impact on the economy (as they’ll cost more, but will last longer, and repair people would have work). Plus we would avoid sending lots to landfills.

But no one listens to me.

As long as our culture promotes profit and growth above all else, this is the inevitable result. It will only get worse. You ever see bacteria in a Petri dish when they run out of food?
I’m afraid we have to rise above our basic instincts, but too many profit from exploiting those same instincts for it to happen naturally.
Oh well, I guess we’re just doomed. I better make sure me and my family grab all we can get before it’s too late. Every man for himself!

 

[Blrfl]

There are products I have purchased, that even though I loved them, the fact that I paid too much for them gnaws and bothers me, and in the end keeps me from really enjoying them.

Even though I feel the TM line is pretty pricey, I have never looked back at what I paid for them, and am left with only the joy they bring.

Sounds like maybe you didn't love the things that gnawed at you as much as you think. Or you were trying to convince yourself that you loved them as a way to justify having spent the money. I've done that.

My relationship with bought things has become a more accounting-oriented and a lot less "OMG I'm losing money on this." Too many people see their gear as an investment and completely ignore the value of what they got out of having it as a return.

Case study: In 2019, I bought a Hotone Ampero for $400. It's been used almost daily, but the last firmware update was a bit of a step back and I'm starting to think about pulling the rip cord if the next one doesn't correct the problems. If Reverb is a good guide, pricing it at $250 would undercut everybody else and it would sell pretty quickly. I wouldn't look at that as taking a $150 loss. The monthly cost of ownership over these 39 months is about $3.85. Can I honestly tell myself that the enjoyment I got out of it was worth at least that a month? Yeah, I think I can. If I keep it for another month, that figure goes down to $3.75. Cha-ching!

 

[johnnyASAT]

Well from an accounting perspective if you hang on to it for another year it will be fully depreciated on a five year basis. Every day you play it after 2024 you are making money! By the same token I've been playing my Blues Cube for seven years. I'll be rich any day now.

Speaking of the Blues Cube, mine has been hanging in there pretty well. Absolutely zero qualms about it. Not sure how the TM build quality compares, but at least a decade with a piece of gear is not bad for the investment imo. Any time I thought something was wrong with it it turned out to be my input cable going bad, or a buzzy light or something like that.

 

[Blrfl]

Well from an accounting perspective if you hang on to it for another year it will be fully depreciated on a five year basis.

Even on a time-owned basis, that would still be $6.67 a month. Still worth it.

 

[68goldtop]

Hi!

Oh well, I guess we’re just doomed.

I think that´s really old news (like, 4-5000 years old...)

cheers - 68.