How do I put a toe in Jazz?

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by charlie chitlin, Apr 28, 2020.

  1. The Angle

    The Angle Tele-Afflicted

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    Set aside some time to explore this website: Jazz Guitar Online. It's one of the most amazing guitar player's resources on the web, and most of it is free. They do sell books, which are also excellent, but wait for one of their frequent half-off sales to buy.
     
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  2. charlie chitlin

    charlie chitlin Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    NICE!
    Thanks.
    I was getting tired of this tune losing me money!!
    This is probably an embarrassing question, but what I play never involves paper, so it's foreign to me...what's the dash denote in, for instance, F#-7?
    Is it maj7?
    Should the 4th measure be Amaj7?
    I figured out the little 0 means diminished.
    Patting myself on the back, there.
    Sad, eh?
    How do you get a guitar player to turn down?
    Put music in front of him.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
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  3. Elmore

    Elmore Tele-Holic

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    Just learn songs and licks by Grant Green. Or copy horn licks by Art Pepper.
     
  4. Bergy

    Bergy Tele-Holic

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    A minus sign is short hand for minor. So that "A-" in measure four is an A minor chord, I'd probably make it an A minor 7 just out of habit.

    Sometimes it helps me memorize tunes after I see it visually. I always write out those tunes in 4 measures per line because most musical forms occur in 4 or 8 measure chunks.

    In case you run into it...the symbol for major is a triangle. So that Amaj7 chord you mentioned could be written that way a little more quickly substituting a triangle for "maj."

    Here is a live version of a tune that employs some similar sounds, just without the ii-V-I's. I don't think ya need to overplay on something like this, let your harp player take as much space as he cares to.

     
  5. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    820CEB26-B2A5-436F-A536-D9089CA6A2E9.png Yes, there are jazz fans....but they’re a small fraction of the population, just as for opera, ragtime, and other older genres.

    Read this article. Jazz has dismal album sales— annual sales of ALL jazz albums equals sales of a single Taylor Swift album. Jazz represents 0.3% of all streamed music. Sorry, but jazz fans are a very rare, disappearing breed.



    You can find this article if you google “popularity of jazz music”.

    I like jazz and try to play it— because I am a musician and because other musicians turned me onto it when I was in junior high. I’ve played in high school jazz bands, gone long distances to see jazz players I like, and study it to be a better musician. But the truth is the truth even if you don’t like it. The fact is that jazz is the absolutely least popular form of music, and its market share declines every year.
     
  6. nvilletele

    nvilletele Friend of Leo's

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    I second everything said by Bergy above. Very good advice there. Plus, he knows more than I do, so I'd say listen to him.

    But the Paul Oscher version Charlie posted sounds to my ear to be in Eb, a whole step down from the original Hoagy Charmicheal version in F in the Real Book, and a half step down from the version in E posted above by Bergy. (Maybe my guitar I played along to the video with was out of tune, but the youtube version Charlie posted seemed to be in Eb to me).

    But of course the real issue is what key your guy wants you to play it in.

    I learned this song on sax, and have never played it on guitar. I can play jazz on sax (to a limited degree, since I pretty much suck on sax as much as I do on guitar), but I never can manage playing jazz chords on guitar. Bergy is right that you need not approach this version in a very jazzy way at all. A bluesy jazz ballad. No need for swung eighths here of course.

    First figure out what key you will have to play it in before you start working on the changes. I've got it written out in F and in the two related sax keys for that, G and D. And some play along tracks for it, but only in F. Should any of those prove useful, I can help you out with them.

    Now I'm gonna have to start playing this tune again (on sax). It's a fun tune to play, I love ballads.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  7. Verne Bunsen

    Verne Bunsen Tele-Afflicted

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    I don’t know that one puts a toe into jazz. It’s more like you tie a lead weight around your ankle, toss it in and jump in after it. I decided to expand my playing by learning some jazz about three years ago, I’m still in the part of the curve where you keep re-discovering how little you know. It is rewarding and my playing has never been better, but it is a commitment. If you do pursue it, direct instruction from a good teacher is the way to go. In my opinion.
     
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  8. nvilletele

    nvilletele Friend of Leo's

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    I know you've already got a response about the dash indicating minor, but in case this is of any use, here is a small chart with some notation that might be useful.

    Screen shot 2020-04-29 at 12.03.39 AM.png

    These may also be of use, though covering some of the same items.


    Screen Shot 2020-04-29 at 12.39.36 AM.png

    Screen Shot 2020-04-29 at 12.47.16 AM.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
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  9. fakeocaster

    fakeocaster Tele-Afflicted

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    It's A7 rather than Amaj 7 in this case. You could play a regular A if you prefer. The minus sign means minor
     
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  10. AxemanVR

    AxemanVR Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    I get your basic premise...

    Any complex form of music, such as Jazz, Classical or even Prog Rock, has a comparatively smaller fan-base.

    First of all, most people want music that doesn’t strain their brain, and, unless it’s part of a movie soundtrack or piped in at the dental office, they really don’t fully embrace genres like Classical and Jazz... except as background music.

    Sure, they may go to a Jazz club - and even thoroughly enjoy the experience - but, what do they have preset on their satellite car radio? Are they listening to the "Real Jazz" channel or the "Hip-Hop Nation" channel on the way home? (I’m partial to the Grateful Dead these days myself). The same questions can apply to CDs or smartphone audio streaming services of course...

    Like you implied, I too believe that most “real” Jazz aficionados are the musicians themselves. Sad fact is, I literally don’t know anyone who truly “loves” Jazz - not even my musician friends... and what little "strictly" Jazz (or Classical) pieces I do perform these days, I mostly do for myself.

    Let’s face it, when you’re sitting around a campfire, most people just don't have that deep appreciation for an extended piece by Joe Pass, Andrés Segovia or Emerson Lake and Palmer - compared to a much more "fun" song by Garth Brooks, for example...

    ...and that’s why my strategy is to “sneak” such things into my songs - in smaller doses - in order to confound my victims when they least expect it!


    F7F3BB01-EDC3-4E8F-B7D6-8BC52B3D4338.jpeg



     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
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  11. ruger9

    ruger9 Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Best advice in this thread. THIS is the only place to start.

    Also, poke around this website... a great resource... I have been learning "Autumn Leaves"...it's one of the "beginner" jazz tunes everyone seems to learn...

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/autumn-leaves-melody-and-solo/
     
  12. darkwaters

    darkwaters Friend of Leo's

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    Funny, that's the version of Autumn Leaves that I've been studying lately. Yes, that is a great site.
     
  13. AxemanVR

    AxemanVR Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    ‘Tis true... unless the Root were omitted, and depending on which 7th, 9th or 13th notes are involved... and, further depending on the context of how it's being used - especially in short passing chord situations (to simply reinforce a melodic line within the progression for instance).

    But yes, the presence of an 11th can most certainly have a "sus" feel...



    ,
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  14. gregj1964

    gregj1964 Tele-Meister

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  15. AxemanVR

    AxemanVR Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    I couldn't help but notice... that last chart is missing one very important chord: The "diminished Triad":

    1-b3-b5

    It may not have been one of the "Chord Types" included in that particular book, but I still think it's a glaring omission, since there are times when a simpler "diminished triad" can fit better than the more ubiquitous "diminished 7th chord".

    *edit*

    Call me anal, but I "fixed" it:

    Chord ''Formulas'' Chart.png



    `
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  16. jgpdx

    jgpdx TDPRI Member

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    Best 11 minutes on YouTube:
     
  17. AxemanVR

    AxemanVR Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    `
    Yes!

    The best thing to get out of that video is this:

    You don't have to know everything... because "Half the battle is just knowing something exists!"...

    I've already resigned myself to the fact that I'll never be as good as "fill in the blank", but I can still use the many concepts like this (learned over the years), in my own musical performances or song writing, with profound results.

    A person may not necessarily define their entire musical philosophy by what was revealed in that video, but they can still use it in smaller ways to simply enhance what they've already got!

    So, even if not aspiring to become the next Jazz Czar, one can still throw a couple interesting arpeggio twists into a solo to get people's attention!

    In that respect, any such knowledge essentially becomes another useful tool in one's ever growing toolbox...


    `
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
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  18. kLyon

    kLyon Tele-Holic

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    Step one: Buy/download Wes Montgomery album
    Step two: listen. a lot.
    Step three: transcribe solos.
    Step four: try to play them.
    Step five: give up.

    No, in all seriousness, start by listening. Listen to all of it: from Dixie to avant garde. It's all valid.
    You can get a lot from guitar players: Charlie Christian in the beginning, Wes, Benson... there were/are many great ones... but the real action is with the horn players: Lester Young, Bird, Miles, Clifford Brown, Coltrane, Cannonball, Dexter Gordon, and on and on... the greatest musical talent of a couple of generations played jazz. And don't forget the singers.

    Then go to the University of YouTube)
     
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  19. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    Josh Smith's video is very much on point. Don't over-complicate things. Figure out the chord fingerings you want to use to play the song you want to play. From there it's all about creating a solo emphasizing those chord notes and connecting them in creative and jazzy sounding ways such as using 2-5-1 turnarounds to approach your upcoming target chord.

    If you pick up three different chord charts for a standard song you'll typically see somewhat different chords. That's because the author is suggesting different substitutions-- the apparently different chords from chart to chart are actually all pretty darn close if you lay them out note by note. They might be inversions where the bass note is giving it the name on the chart even though really it's just an inversion of a different chord that would actually be a better name to use from a harmonic perspective. Or maybe there's one altered note. For example, some guys like playing lots of 6ths, some don't. So the chord charts and what they really mean can get a bit confusing....and so you have to really look at the chart and try to figure out what is really going on, harmonically.

    The super extended chords can really confuse things-- and come about because piano players have ten fingers and they like to use all of them. If there's a keyboardist in your band covering all those notes then as guitar player you want to pick two or three notes a la Freddie Green and focus on those. Typically the 3, 7, maybe the root, and maybe an extended note. But the approach to playing chords has to change quite dramatically when you have a keyboard in the ensemble, IMO.
     
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  20. charlie chitlin

    charlie chitlin Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    I think you really need to just PLAY this stuff. Find some patient Jazz guys and play.
    A few years ago, someone outed me as a guitar player, so some new friends invited me to jam at a party.
    The only problem was, one was head of the jazz dept at a university, one had been with Sun Ra by the time he was a teenager, another toured the world with Dewey Redmon, had gigged with John Abercrombie....
    I spent a lot of time just holding my guitar, but they were super cool and kept throwing me solos.
    At one point in the evening, one of them grinned widely, nodded his head and said, "Charlieee! Playin' some Bop lines!!"
    Talk about learning to swim by being tossed in the deep end!
     
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