How can I create this Tobacco Burst without nitro?

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by hamilcaster, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. hamilcaster

    hamilcaster Tele-Meister

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    Hey, I'm in the planning stages of a new thinline jazzmaster build and am not sure how to go about finishing the guitar.

    [​IMG]

    It's an alder body and after having researched endlessly about finishing, I know this species isn't great for dyeing. I'll be using a semi-gloss 2K urethane rattle can topcoat so I figured I'd want to dye it somehow instead of spraying with nitro or something since I don't think 2K urethane over lacquer spells success.

    My goal is this right here:
    [​IMG]

    I think this burst is beautiful and want to do anything I can to achieve something close.

    I have all the transtint dyes I'll need but it feels like I'm kinda stuck unless I just go all nitro and I really don't want to mess with that setup again for lack of good weather and space to spray, and the long curing process. 2K is basically done in a day and no buffing if shot decently.

    There's the dye in shellac method but can you really go nearly black with dyed shellac? And the preval sprayers don't have the finest spray pattern (the spray edge/transition can be spotted and not smooth). I'm so close to trying to dye it by hand but I just know how that's going to turn out! What is everyone's thoughts on such a matter?
     
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  2. NICQ

    NICQ Tele-Meister

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  3. LowThudd

    LowThudd Friend of Leo's

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    French polishing can achieve that. Though, I have no FHE.

    +2 on the source for the body

     
  4. hamilcaster

    hamilcaster Tele-Meister

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    Thanks for the ideas. I think the amber part would be doable by hand with dyeing or shellac in dye, just not sure how well the dark edge would turn out. Do you think sanding the black away would leave a nice blend once amber was added? I see where lots of scrap would could come in handy... The problem is every tutorial is hand rubbing maple! I'm envious of such a nice-dyeing wood!

    Yes, the body is from Saylor. It's a very nice body, I'm impressed!
     
  5. LowThudd

    LowThudd Friend of Leo's

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    You could also get a rattle can burst kit from Stew Mac.
     
  6. Jupiter

    Jupiter Telefied Ad Free Member

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    One option is to spray the dye on with an airbrush...

    On the other hand, I have used acrylic lacquer automotive rattle cans under 2-pack urethane (from the same company) without issues. It wasn't a burst, but it worked fine. Just gotta give it lots of time of off-gas. Presumably a burst would be quite thin coats, which should off-gas relatively quickly.
     
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  7. DrASATele

    DrASATele Poster Extraordinaire

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    This might be simpler than you realize. 2 things can be done for the amber. First direct stain. I'd make up an amber stain with DNA or Water or buy it from General Finishes. 2nd Amber shellac. Both can be used with a Pre-Val set up or an Air brush as Jupiter said. Once the amber is down. Seal it. If you direct stain then you can seal it with shellac or something like a wipe on polyurethane. Obviously if you use Amber shellac for the color you wouldn't seal it in with more shellac, use the wipe on polyurethane. Now that the base color is sealed in. on top of the polyurethane you can spray with an air brush a very dark brown burst with tinted shellac ....Why on top of the poly you ask?...because if you screw up the burst, grab some DNA wipe it off and start over. [another reason to seal the whole base color thing in with the poly] Once the burst is as you want it then top it with many coats wipe on poly, TruOil, 2K or almost any other clear coat.
    The sanding back part usually only works on something like maple 9tight grained) that is figured.

    Good luck.
     
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  8. macaroonie

    macaroonie Friend of Leo's

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    I did this Tobacco burst in much the same way as in the first You Tube vid above. I used spirit stain / dye. If you have some scrap to practice on that's a plus. It is worth even buying something similar.
    My advice is to thin the stain as much as 50 50 at first till you get a measure of whats needed. Obviously you do your pale color first ie. amber , then your brown. I would work the brown as the vid guy does , starting from the perimeter , gradually getting a heavier application as you move out to the edge. If you go a bit heavy with the ' fade ' clear thinners will lift it if you get it quick. It should not mess up the amber if it has had time to dry ( actually staining the wood )

    Once you have done that seal the whole lot with clear of your preference

    Happy rubbing

    IMG_0486.JPG
     
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  9. Mike Simpson

    Mike Simpson Doctor of Teleocity

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    Note: most of the examples "rubbed stain sunbursts" are on maple and not alder and not relevant to how alder accepts stain unevenly and looks blotchy.
     
  10. hamilcaster

    hamilcaster Tele-Meister

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    macaroonie: that guitar is beautiful!!

    Good point to reiterate.

    DrASATele: Thanks for the vision. I might just invest in an inexpensive airbrush setup, feels like a decent thing to have in general. I guess there's no reason shellac can't be the carrier for dark solid colors if enough is put on, I just always associate it with translucent amber tones. I think am leaning towards shellac then.

    Thank you all for the quick blast of ideas. I'm excited to finish, and then finish this thing. I'm considering putting in some TV Jones classic/classic plus pickups I have. Should be a fairly unique setup.
     
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  11. Mike Simpson

    Mike Simpson Doctor of Teleocity

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    If you spray the burst, many like to put down a clear coat first so that if you are not happy with the burst you can sand back to clear and re-burst.
    This can also add depth to the burst.
     
  12. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    That's really pretty, Mac. Nice job!
     
  13. MrYeats

    MrYeats Tele-Meister

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    If it were my project, I would look at water based powder dyes. Do the wood in all yellow and then hit the edges with can spray your dark color, coffee brown would be my choice, then finish with urethane. Auto parts houses usually carry great auto colors and the variety is great.

    This tele with a spalted maple top is one I did, and still play, is done that way though be it red and yellow.

    RED !.JPG
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  14. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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  15. maxvintage

    maxvintage Poster Extraordinaire

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    you can do a sunburst with dyes







    Those were both done with transtint dyes and then finished with shellac. I used transtint dissolved in water, because it dries a bit more slowly and gives you more working time. you have to wet the wood and then sand it lightly after it dries, to pre-raise the gran.

    Start with the lightest color as your base, then add the next next, and end with the darkest.
     
  16. hamilcaster

    hamilcaster Tele-Meister

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    Thanks for those examples of beautiful guitars! I haven't quite gotten to the finishing stage yet as I still need to add binding to the f-hole. I'm gonna start by dyeing the body amber to start and then seal it. Perhaps brown tinted shellac after that through a cheap airbrush. I hadn't really thought about spraying tinted polyurethane but I guess that's an option too...
     
  17. hamilcaster

    hamilcaster Tele-Meister

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    Well I managed to do something!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I dyed the body with vintage amber transtint in water after raising and knocking down the grain. The amber was about 80% consistent in it's dyed appearance regarding blotchiness and it wasn't a deep enough amber for me. So I hooked up a cheap airbrush and compressor and sprayed a thick cut of tinted shellac from flakes. Let me tell you that an airbrush is a tedious process! Took a long time to get completely cover the body, going with the grain to hide any streaks. Eventually, I gave up and just wiped the shellac on with a rag and that was perfect!

    Then, I dumped a bunch of Honey Brown dye into the remaining shellac and sprayed the burst, which also took a while. I was worried at first when the burst was coming out like a cherry burst, too much red for my liking. So I kept dumping in more brown and spraying more coats until it eventually darkened up and was getting close. Then I dumped in some Dark Walnut dye to really seal the deal and sprayed the edges of the body. It sure as hell ain't perfect and I have no idea what it'll look like once clear coated but I think it was a success. The only issue besides some transition spots that are too abrupt is the fact that the over spray of many passes to create the burst as settled on the rest of the body, the surface has now developed quite a roughness and I'm hesitant to knock it down for fear of altering the color. So would I be crazy to just go ahead and shoot a good coat of clear 2k topcoat and hope it'll level out and lay flat? The idea being that I don't want to sand or buff the clear at all and I'm not going for glass smooth. Will the roughness be visually apparent through the clear even if it lays down smooth?

    Also, anyone use the different sheens of Spraymax 2k clear? There is Glamor (high) Gloss, then Semi-matte, and finally Matte. I want shiny but just not mirror wet shiny and the word "matte" kinda scares me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
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  18. ndcaster

    ndcaster Doctor of Teleocity

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    you are some sort of wizard
     
  19. macaroonie

    macaroonie Friend of Leo's

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  20. maxvintage

    maxvintage Poster Extraordinaire

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    Lol no! I’m a blunderer who sometimes blunders into good results. The thing about dye stains is you have to work pretty fast and you have to be willing to accept a certain amount of randomness. With sprayed on bursts you get a lot of control and precision. With the dye stains you can blend and lighten and darken some but you have to accept that it’s not totally controllable.

    I make up three small bowls of dye and three rags, one for each color, and a bowl of water for blending and tuning. An overall light coat, then the next darkest, then the darkest, and you want to keep rubbing and working the blend. I usually do a second round with the darker colors.
     
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