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Honest question (no trolling): if tone wood is a myth, then why..

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by homesick345, Nov 5, 2016.

  1. RLee77

    RLee77 Friend of Leo's

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    Tone cannot be measured. It has no units of measurement. You can only compare various tones by ear and ask, "are they different", or, "do I like this one better?"
     
  2. william tele

    william tele Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Threads that discuss whether one thing is better than another are great, but the ones that debate whether or not a difference is even audible are "fascinating"... as someone already pointed out.

    I'm not sure if I'm thankful not to be able to hear these differences or jealous that I can't. Regardless...I can't. It is kind of embarrasing to not even know if I have tone wood, bad tonewood or good tone wood.

    Do any of the local guitar shops have a service to evaluate the wood our guitars are made of and deem them good or bad? I mean, if some folks hearing is that good then shouldn't their judgement be better than mine? After all, if I can't even hear a difference then who am I to judge? Whew...
     
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  3. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    Wrong. Tone and or timbre can be measured by volume and content. What is the EQ of the sound reproduced and amplified, or dampened, when a string tuned to pitch is plucked when attached to that bit of wood? Every audio aspect of any sound can be measured and identified. What can't be scientifically measured is: subjective opinion on how pleasing or annoying the tone is. Our feelings about tone don't define tone, they define our feelings. The tone is the tone, like the tree falling in the forest ... even if there is no forum member there to critique the crash, it still makes a sound when it lands. Whether it's an "ice-picky" sound or a "creamy, distorted" sound, it will make a sound. I'll bet it's a "woody sound".
     
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  4. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    Yes. Yes "their" judgement is better.
     
  5. william tele

    william tele Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Quotes?... Did I make a spelling blunder? Should I have spelled it thuire? Like Squire?
     
  6. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    Quotation marks aren't for spelling corrections; they are for quoting something. I was quoting you. Therefore I used quotation marks. You said "their". That was a quote.
     
  7. RLee77

    RLee77 Friend of Leo's

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    Nope. There is no "tone meter". You can measure a lot of various characteristics of a specific tone, and create numbers on a graph, but tone is interpreted by the ear. You cannot look at a bunch of detailed graphs of frequency and amplitude, phase correlations, etc. and tell me which one you like better.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
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  8. Tony Done

    Tony Done Friend of Leo's

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    True, but you could audio-model them and decide from that. Then you could spend a lot of time trying to find out why you liked the one you did. :)
     
  9. kelnet

    kelnet Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Do you have examples of what "creamy, distorted" would look like as a measurement? How about mahogany versus basswood? This came up a while ago in the recent thread about tone woods (which was different from this thread about tone woods). There was a debate about whether or not we could even adequately describe the tone of a guitar so that it made sense. However, if it can be measured, then there must be terminology to go along with those measurements, and probably also graphical evidence of those measurements.

    If it's true that "every audio aspect of any sound can be measured and identified," then there must be units of those measurements.
     
  10. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    This topic seems to be discussed weekly with each side of the debate certain they are correct however we ALL agree that tonewood does not affect a solid or semi hollow body guitars tonality when it is still in tree form.

    Nothing is certain or agreed upon after that. :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
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  11. Formerblonde

    Formerblonde Tele-Meister

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    Here goes.

    It's just physics. Everything that happens in an acoustic/electric guitar is just physics. In the case of solid body electric guitars, I don't believe the construction materials/methods have a measurable impact on the final outcome.

    I understand that many people believe they can hear a difference between the different types of wood. That may be true. BUT, if you accept the "Tone" is a byproduct of the type of woods used then you must also accept a litany of other factors that must also affect the "Tone". Just for starters...in no particular order and by no means complete.

    1: Number of glue joints and type of glue
    2: Torque applied to bridge mounting screws, screw material, length and diameter
    3: Torque applied to neck mounting screws, material. length and diameter
    4: Placement of strap buttons; screws-torque, material, length, diameter
    5: Finish-type and thickness
    6: played standing or sitting
    7: moisture content of the wood
    8: density of the wood
    9: ambient temperature

    etc etc etc and so forth,

    If we're putting the word "resonance" for the body/neck contribution to the final tone of a guitar then we have to take a great many factors into account. Not just the type of wood.

    FB
     
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  12. Blue Bill

    Blue Bill Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    I found a picture of the top-secret tone measuring laboratory at the Fender factory:

    WMHT-comark-transmitter-tele.jpg
     
  13. Mr Green Genes

    Mr Green Genes Tele-Afflicted

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    You guys argue that any differences in woods that can't be measured in terms of numbers on a graph are not valid, that if the difference can only be measured by ear it can only be a result of confirmation bias or auditory hallucination, then you turn around and say that the differences on the graphs are not valid, and that tone can only be interpreted by ear.

    It's amazing the lengths people will go to.

    Nobody has made any value judgements in terms of "better" or "worse", only different.
     
  14. homesick345

    homesick345 Poster Extraordinaire

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    TRIGGERED!!!!!!!!!!!!

    some in this thread are triggered - like the worst SJWs you'd ever see

    whether tone wood has anything to do or not, I don't see why anybody would be SO pissed about that kind of discussion (even if it happened 100000 times before)

    If you don't like those threads - move on
     
  15. Mr Green Genes

    Mr Green Genes Tele-Afflicted

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    It's true.

    You don't believe in physics, or you don't believe that physics apply to electric guitars?

    Many of us have made that same point repeatedly. There are many variables, including the wood, which impact the voice of the instrument. What are you trying to say?
     
  16. RLee77

    RLee77 Friend of Leo's

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    I realize you're just summarizing many different statements by various posters, but since you attached it to my quote, I'm just clarifying that I didn't say that…
    Or that…
    Nor that…
    Close… :cool:

    Was really just reacting to strat a various's post that "every audio aspect of any sound can be measured and identified". It's just not that simple. Look how long R&D labs have been working on accurate modeling amps, and they're only striving to copy and reproduce a tone, not identify every characteristic. The ear can pick up tiny nuances that would not at all be apparent on a piece of test equipment.
     
  17. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    The word tone isn't defined by subjective appraisal. Find a definition of "tone" that lists whether the sound is likable or pleasurable. The word "quality", by the way, (in most definitions of "tone"), is defined as "characteristic". You are re-defining the word "tone", so there's no discussing tone with you.
     
  18. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    There are plenty of scope graphs that show distortion as saw-tooth or square-tooth waves, and softer "creamy" distortion looks like less abrupt examples of the same. If you have questions about instruments that measure sound, Google is you friend.
     
  19. boris bubbanov

    boris bubbanov Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    I disagree.

    This one is different. We do, way too often, discuss one subject to death, and then do it again the next week. But this Thread is a witches blend of several points of discussion all comingled together. It stands to reason that if we cannot work out a consensus about one specific item in isolation, that when we meld more than one of these dead end discussions together with other dead end discussions, well, life is just too short. Which is way beyond preposterous, I would say.

    This thread is about finding a needle that may not actually exist in a huge haystack that may not exist on a planet that probably doesn't exist in a universe that almost certainly doesn't exist. If I should happen to find a needle, have I proven the existence of that universe? As the black lady and others like to say "Ain't nobody got time for that!". They're right. Homesick is just trying to cause trouble. He knows better.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
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  20. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    LOL Well all I know is the day you find me running around a forest knocking on trees to see which one has the "tone" I'm after you have my permission to call the good folks at Happy Harry's Ha Ha Hotel and have 'em come pick me up. :lol:
     
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