Home and vehicle to grid.

Killing Floor

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Here's a recent article on a city wide vehicle to grid progam in Utrecht. One of the bigger participants is a car service, with the advantage being that the business won't be quite as put out as individuals would be if battery wear is higher than expected (their vehicles see much more use than personal vehicles so are making money when used, etc.).


Not sure about the 50% loss number @Killing Floor mentions on transmission. The large scale modeling papers and the widely used GREET model don't have it anywhere near that high, IIRC about 5 or 10%. The EIA puts the US average at 5%.
The rational data you’d see from EIA, EEP, and other sources like World Bank surveys don’t generally account for all technical losses such as bifurcation, phase unbalance, joints and PF. They are estimated based on transformer steps and average distance to meter. This results in a typical delta here in the US of more than 20% between published consumer information and actual delivery.
Also, it may genuinely be 6% where you live or 10 times that.
Like I said, the closer your meter is to the plant, the more efficacious your service. Hence the reasoning behind distributed generation. If you’re in a sparsely populated area vs a metropolis it varies. A simple test is to measure the voltage at your outlet. A better test is to measure the 3 phase where you work.
 

jvin248

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.

You're going to want a small solar backup system for the frequent grid down situations ahead, when gasoline is too pricey to run the gas generator you have now.

States with power companies that fairly buy energy from solar power citizens will find retirees staying home with the AC and lights off so they can buy groceries with the energy they sell, as inflation wiped out social security and 401k's....

Some power companies don't want powered citizens selling them energy, so they are reducing offers.

The future will be a strange place.

.
 

imwjl

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I'm really surprised this topic hasn't gone onto the no-no list here. It is fraught with political implications.
It's a fascinating idea people are researching to possibly solve a forever electric utilities challenge - that's not political.

Edit: Don't you think that would be genius if the solution for no brown outs pays you same time it solves the problem at lower cost?
 
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notmyusualuserid

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Yes yes but what if I haven't read a thing about it except some facebook memes and have simply decided I don't like it for nebulous reasons I can't explain coherently? Isn't my opinion still 100% valid? I think it is.
I wasn't questioning the validity of your opinion. I wasn't addressing you at all, if I had been I would have quoted you.

I was merely stating a fact. I could say more, having been involved in consultations, but politics. :)
 

Bob Womack

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My company has been on a power saving and sales system for years. Firstly, they run a water tank system to cool all their buildings. They freeze water overnight and blow air over it during the day for cooling. Of course, they have a regular cooling plant downstream to dehumidify the air. Secondly, they've got a huge Cummings diesel generator onsite as a power backup. They discovered that the power company sets your commercial power rate scale based upon your draw at the period of peak demand on the hottest day of the year. They've got a rig that can synchronize the generator with local power phase so they regularly and automatically crank up the genny during peak periods so that the power company sees feed rather than draw, earning us a significant reduction to our rate scale throughout the year. It also has the byproduct of keeping the generator system exercised so that it works when there is an actual power dropout.

Bob
 

imwjl

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My company has been on a power saving and sales system for years. Firstly, they run a water tank system to cool all their buildings. They freeze water overnight and blow air over it during the day for cooling. Of course, they have a regular cooling plant downstream to dehumidify the air. Secondly, they've got a huge Cummings diesel generator onsite as a power backup. They discovered that the power company sets your commercial power rate scale based upon your draw at the period of peak demand on the hottest day of the year. They've got a rig that can synchronize the generator with local power phase so they regularly and automatically crank up the genny during peak periods so that the power company sees feed rather than draw, earning us a significant reduction to our rate scale throughout the year. It also has the byproduct of keeping the generator system exercised so that it works when there is an actual power dropout.

Bob
I can't imagine our not having to have some sorts of backups as you describe, but you illustrate how this idea catches my interest. The cars or houses in our neighborhoods smoothing out the peak power demands. The gas powered plant that does peak generation for my metro area is building storage into a solar expansion they are doing. Even if this us to grid idea doesn't pan out, ways like that will address the challenge.

It occurred to me that a convenience motivated grab acoustic guitar around dinner time vs go downstairs for electric is "going green" LOL. In my case there's no sacrifice or sadness if spruce and rosewood vs Princeton Reverb does the amplification.
 

archtop_fjk

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I'm a mechanical engineer, and while I am certain that battery systems for residential use will improve and become more affordable with time (like cell phones), at the present time we still need a base load source of energy such as natural gas, nuclear, or coal from large power plants. Eventually, these sources will be phased out but for now we can continue to use them (cleanly) until the infrastructure, reliability and safety issues of batteries and other local energy storage systems are resolved. Personally, I'm very interested in obtaining a Tesla battery system for my home to act as a backup for power outages.
 

chris m.

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Here's a great PodCast on what it will take to decarbonize the energy grid, transportation, and residential/commercial indoor heating/cooling, and the most likely path to getting there in the time frame we are shooting for. Nuclear and advanced geothermal are definitely part of the mix. It's quite a challenge, but achievable if momentum can be generated and sustained.

 

Informal

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I have enough Solar on my home, that I haven't paid a power bill, in years.

Would love to have a battery backup system, but the cost, vs their lifespan, hasn't come close to making sense yet.
 

NC E30

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And to the other point, a large component of what we call “smart grid” assumes that electric vehicles connected to metered control are an available source of energy that can be recalled by a utility to meet demand during periods of lower production.
Think of millions of plugged in electric cars at millions of batteries available to the grid.
So if I understand this correctly, during the hottest part of the day when demand is the highest, the grid is using your car battery for support. What happens when it's time to go home from work and your car's battery is depleted from supporting the grid all day? Not trying to be contrarian, but this would be a real concern for me.
 

imwjl

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So if I understand this correctly, during the hottest part of the day when demand is the highest, the grid is using your car battery for support. What happens when it's time to go home from work and your car's battery is depleted from supporting the grid all day? Not trying to be contrarian, but this would be a real concern for me.
My understanding is the grid will only use batteries in circumstances where it makes sense such as a car at home or in an office location charger and having a enough charge.

This is all experimental at this point but I'm certain a lot of metro areas will have enough of the vehicles in years to come. 15% to 20% of that would be a lot of electricity. Being paid an amount ahead of wear and tear costs but still making off peak charging a bargain seems genius to me.
 

Killing Floor

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So if I understand this correctly, during the hottest part of the day when demand is the highest, the grid is using your car battery for support. What happens when it's time to go home from work and your car's battery is depleted from supporting the grid all day? Not trying to be contrarian, but this would be a real concern for me.
This is a great question and nobody really knows the answer because it’s never been done broadly.

Have you heard the term Demand Response? Basically when a grid is overtaxed instead of brownouts our partial blackouts a utility can alert a big user (think factory) and ask them (or in some cases automatically) divert some of their service temporarily. In most cases at least in US where I am familiar, the buyer is compensated for that reduction by a payment or a bill credit.

Reason for bringing this up, it occurs to me that whilst an electric vehicle is connected to an electric grid, just like the factory example above, it could be argued the user doesn’t have claim to the electricity until they are billed for it. Or possibly until they pay for it.

Point is, while I am fully uncertain how this 2-way deployment of smart grid technology will settle out, I am certain the utility and/or municipalities will have the upper hand just as they do now.

As things sit Today, all demand response is voluntary and all 2-way metering (selling your surplus back to the utility for a “negative” bill) is also voluntary. I have to keep up with energy and electric and life safety codes but I can only guess what it will be like in the future.
 

chris m.

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I could imagine an EV owner getting a text saying, "We see you have 200 miles of range on your vehicle, and that it is currently plugged into the grid. Please tell us how many miles of range you would be willing to sell back to the utility between the hours of 3 pm and 4 p.m. We will pay you $1 a kilowatt hour". Then the EV owner could say yes (and make a little money), or say, "no thanks". BTW for reference it takes about 18 kwh to go around 60 miles in a sedan EV.
 




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