High Powered Tweed Twin Amp - anyone played through or owned one

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by CV Jee Beez, Mar 31, 2019.

  1. uriah1

    uriah1 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Saw his interview in recent online guitar mag. He has all his amps at full tilt on stage
    with plexigas protectors. Heck of work for soundman and rest of band.

     
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  2. Lynxtrap

    Lynxtrap Tele-Holic

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    That would be painfully loud. Maybe like 115-120 dB at that distance, depending on the speakers? Looks like he's wearing ear plugs.

    In theory: If the speakers combined are capable of 100dB at 1W measured 1 meter from the cab, it's 118dB if or when the amp blasts out 64W.
    That is assuming each speaker is rated at 97dB efficiency.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  3. anthrotony

    anthrotony Tele-Meister

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    ah, with my eyesight I couldn't tell if he was wearing earplugs. But if you're right that would be painfully loud indeed.
     
  4. Axis29

    Axis29 Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    It looks 'correct'... Although rougher than any other one I've seen. I hope it goes for that much, because that would make mine much more valuable. But, I would be shocked and awed if it did.

    Coming from Alabama, it seems it might have seen a touch of humidity? LOL It sounds right, though.

    It's interesting about the rectifier, I didn't know the differences between the circuits.


    To answer the question about Bonamassa and breakup? Stupid loud.

    I have run mine up that loud, once or twice. Let us just say, it knocked a bit of dust off the shelves! I doubt I will ever get to truly play my amp like that live, in front of people. The venues I play are much smaller than the ones he (or Keef) does!
     
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  5. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Let's get real. A Roland MicroCube tends to be at loud TV volumes by the time it starts to wake up.

    Home amp is really a myth, IME.

    And if Bonomosso is playing at 120db from that distance, he's still doing hearing damage with earplugs.
     
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  6. rze99

    rze99 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Attenuator
     
  7. Lynxtrap

    Lynxtrap Tele-Holic

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    The math gives us a rough picture of it, even if more factors than watts and dB are at play.

    A 1W amp puts out a SPL equal to the speaker's sensitivity/efficiency at 1 meter, which might be 94–103 dB with speakers on the market today. Add 3 dB for a second speaker.
    So yes, blasting your 1W bedroom micro amp in the apartment nightly can get you evicted.

    There are not many gigs if any where you can get away with running a high power Twin at Bonamassa levels in this day and age. Unless you are Bonamassa or Keith Richards, or run it to an iso cab or something.
     
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  8. Axis29

    Axis29 Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    LOL

    I think to get Bonamassa and Richards levels of overdrive, at home (or even small venue) volumes, running an attenuator is gonna absolutely kill any dynamics the amp had left. Although, admittedly, I've never run one of the high dollar ones....
     
  9. rze99

    rze99 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Yes, well, you gotta trade something somewhere and nothing is perfect.

    I have a family member a little older than me gigged through the 70s and 80s at volume (as you had to!) and now his Tinnitus is so bad it is painful even hard to watch tv. He has depression because it it. Can never escape it. I've learned from him. I'll trade the lost dynamics for my hearing any time.

    PS I use THD HotPlates on my Vox AC30, Marshall 50W, AC30, Deluxe Reverb... crank-'em-up-oldies. And I'm very happy to do so.

    Good luck, Joe.
     
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  10. Paul G.

    Paul G. Friend of Leo's

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    Ceriatone Centura (Klon Centaur clone) crunch, Mad Professor Sweet Honey a little drive, Green Rhino for Tubescreamery.
     

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  11. anthrotony

    anthrotony Tele-Meister

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    All good points and discussion on volume! The only time I played loud was a long time ago through Marshall stacks, and an old Selmer T&B. And even then I was constantly told to turn it down! Yes, I'm a child of that revolution, but luckily I only did that for a few years before getting a "real" job which protected my ears. Like most of you, I've tried everything possible to get the stage tone my brain wants to hear, but at home. Not a lover of MV for sure. Volume pot in the effects loop can be good for Fender-clean amps, but I still find I have to push mid-90db to get a thick tone that pleases me. Fifteen watt amp? Yes, I bought a BassBreaker 15 to see if that would be easier to play than my standard HotRod Deville 410. That was when I learned that 15W is only 6db lower cranked than a 60W tube amp :) Could have achieved that just by plugging into the second input.

    But there's a lot of talk and dislike (generally) of attenuators, and I've certainly not liked the loss of tone when bringing a good amp down to home volume levels. I'll share this link with you all for a great thread (though initially Marshall based) on a DIY attenuator. There are audio samples in the thread so if you check it out, be sure to listen. Anyway, it seems that the thread OP, JohnH, has created some real magic in his circuit and he's generously sharing it with any and everyone. I'm waiting for the resistors to arrive from China, but can't wait to try this out. If it's as good as it comes across from the thread, it would be a godsend for any of us considering an amp as wonderful as a Tweed Twin. Here's the link to page 11, which is nearer the end of his circuit experimentation (I'll be building what he calls Attenuator M): http://www.marshallforum.com/threads/simple-attenuators-design-and-testing.98285/page-11

    In any event, I think this could be my Grail in the search for an always usable Holy Grail amp! Now if only I could get rid of that tinnitus ;)
     
  12. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Totally agree. And if memory serves - 93db is about the volume of the average lawnmower. Few lawmowers are "bedroom volume."

    I think our brains trick us that we are quieter than we actually are, when playing an amp at home.
     
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  13. Lynxtrap

    Lynxtrap Tele-Holic

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    I can't help but think that the hp Twin is sort of superfluous model in today's world if building yourself, given that it's a Bassman with four output tubes.
    A Bassman in a 2x12" cab would be more than enough amp for most situations, with basically the same sound as the Twin, IMO.
     
  14. anthrotony

    anthrotony Tele-Meister

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    But what about the tone clean and edge-of-breakup? And volume for breakup - are they similar? Sorry for asking but whereas I see your logic totally I've never been privileged enough to actually experience these amps in person!
     
  15. thegeezer

    thegeezer Tele-Afflicted

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    As someone who used a BF Bassman in the 60s and early 70s and an SF Twin Reverb from the mid 70s to mid 00s...and had the good fortune to gig through a friend’s ‘58 Bassman a handful of times, they are all loud.

    I love tweed tone, so I suspect the HP tweed Twin would be stunning based on standing in front of that ‘58 Bassman.

    Having said that, I gig with a ‘54 Deluxe which seems to be all the volume most venues want anymore. Rolled into my version of the sweet spot, it still sets my tinnitus off like a fire siren. 12-14 watts with one inefficient 12 inch speaker is still loud. 80 watts and 2x12s are really loud at anything but squeaky clean.
     
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  16. Lynxtrap

    Lynxtrap Tele-Holic

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    I have never played a HPTwin, much less had the opportunity to compare the two amps. All I can say is that the circuits are identical up to the output tubes. And that the output tubes enter overdrive before any previous stage in these circuits. Which means that the Bassman will be pretty loud when "at the edge of breakup" and the Twin will be even louder.

    In theory they should sound very much the same through the same cabinet, given similar voltages etc (although the output transformers are different, whatever difference that makes).

    It's a bit like comparing a BF Twin Reverb with a Super Reverb. Same circuit, different cab, twice the output power.
    If you lift the preamp from the SR and put it into the TR, the result is....no change. You have exactly the same TR as you had before.
    Same thing with the BM vs HPTwin.

    On the other hand, if we look at the math and theory again, twice the power is 3dB louder. That means you can reach down to BM levels with the Twin if using very ineffiecient speakers.
    Unfortunaley in that regard, most speakers used in tweed amps seem to already be very innefficient, like Jensens.
    So you'll have to ask yourself: "Will I need 115 or 118 dB when I crank the thing"
     
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  17. anthrotony

    anthrotony Tele-Meister

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    @thegeezer Sorry to hear that you suffer from tinnitus. I do too, all the time, except that it's some neurological disorder and not apparently linked to listening to loud music. In my case, bizarrely, it becomes painful when there's "unpleasant" noise around, like a poor quality speaker or pop music, but with quality music with full dynamics (ie not the ultra compressed music that is so often published nowadays) listening actually relieves the pain for a while, but only if it stays under a 100db or so. And I agree that 12-15 watts is most often more than enough, at least for my needs. I guess the gassing for something like a Tweed Twin is probably putting the horse before the cart. I have everything I need to build my first 5e3 so I just need to make the time to do that and experience that glorious tweed tone at relatively decent volumes, and then think about what would complement my sonic needs after getting to know this amp.

    @Lynxtrap - interesting screen name there! Are you anywhere in the EU where lynx pose problems? Just curious :) Thanks for your technical explanation. Understanding the circuits better is a side-reason I have for building the 5e3. I sort of get it, but there's nothing like actually working with it to fill in the gaps. And yeah, a few db here or there is not really important when the levels are dangerous to our hearing. What's important to me is how to experience the sound of any particular amp, and how different amps offer different palettes of tone. Of course, this is only really feasible if the SPL can be brought down to a safe level while maintaining that tone.
     
  18. Lynxtrap

    Lynxtrap Tele-Holic

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    :) It has to do with the name of the local place where I live. I chose it in haste once and been using it for years on several forums etc, and now I don't know how to get rid of it! I don't really like it myself :confused:

    To achieve the Bonamassa tone with a HP Twin while keeping the SPL down.... I think most of the solutions have been mentioned, and they all affect the tone somewhat.
    Power scaling is supposed to be the most transparent way of doing it. You can by kits for the small circuit from London Power in Canada. You install it in the amp, and it requires understanding of the circuit and the skills to do the job.
    Attenuators work fine IMO, but not so great when attenuating a lot, like down to "bedroom level".
    Even a simple L-pad can work fine.

    For those chasing a particular tone, there are many options to explore.
    People have been chasing the cranked 100W Marshall tone for decades. Most seem to get by without actually cranking a 100W stack, using smaller amps, master volumes, pedals etc.
     
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  19. anthrotony

    anthrotony Tele-Meister

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    Well I think that as long as the Lynx are set free, it's a pretty cool name! Memorable at least :)

    I think you've pretty much covered the problem and potential solutions. I did buy a VVR to plug into my 5e3 circuit, but I'm going to build it stock first and try it with the attenuator before considering installing it. It might always have some future use as you say even if for another amp. In the meantime, l do like everyone else using peals as necessary, and play as loud as a lawnmower while pretending the volume just won't go any lower ;)
     
  20. Axis29

    Axis29 Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    On volume - Again, I will say, I don't crank my amp to get full on overdrive... I am a quiet player and am told to turn up all the time.

    The Twin and Bassman, may get most of their drive from the power tubes, but there is always a nice touch of hair to the clean (and clean to the hair, actually). The transition from clean-ish to mean takes a long sweep across the volume knob... the overdrive creeps in slowly. But, as we've all talked about, to get full on rock and roll levels of dirt, the amp will be loud. 3 on my Twin worked in beautifully with my buddy's Ampeg J-20 and didn't overpower anyone. By 6 (or Noon), the amp is pretty loud and nicely dirty. I have only been able to push it to this level at a gig once or twice. By 7 or 8 on the dial, it is probably as loud as it's gonna get... Which can be brutal, punishing. It's just more and more saturation after that.

    But, you don't have to rely on the amp for everything. I don't. Last Saturday's gig was my Gretsch, into a Tim (that was on about 2/5 of the time) and my Topanga for reverb. The amp hit 3 on the volume, and I ran my guitar's volume all over the place, from about 5 to 10, depending. Different sounds, different levels of dirt and different levels of reverb, all through using my guitar's volume knob.


    As for the similarities between 5f6-a Bassman and 5f8-a Twin - The circuits are almost identical. Component count, and values, all the same. The difference is two more tubes, two more speakers, cabinets and he-uuuuuge transformers. Let me tell you, the transformers make a huge difference. Huge, huge difference in bass response. The cabinet size/speaker compliment makes a bit of a difference as well. The overall volume is different, but not like night and day.... I have a '59 Bassman Reissue (that's been re-wired to 5f6-a specs) and have compared them directly.

    A Bassman fills a space with sound. The four by ten set up seems to just spread beautiful sound throughout a room instantly. It surrounds you. A Twin, with the two 12's and smaller cabinet, is more direct. The Twin can be beamy. Sitting in front of it can be brutal. But, the Twin also has a certain authority to it that is heavy and fills a space in a different way. The Bassman sounds airier, maybe a little sparklier, but, in a great way. The Twin sounds warm and has lots of overtones, and the bass is NEVER flubby, even cranked.

    They sound different enough that I have no qualms about keeping both. I can easily justify it.
     
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