Help picking speakers and a cab for a Ceriatone OTS 20 (Mini)

[JTStivers]

Howdy! I have a C-Tone OTS 20 w with a C-Lator. I use a TC G-System in the loop and typically play with a PRS CE 24 or a homemade Tele with slightly overwound Fralins.

Currently, I'm in two cover bands--one is classic rock/blues, the other is dance/pop. Both are trios, with medium loud drummers and bass players. While I like the tone I get out of this rig, the 20 watt C-Tone breaks up earlier than I'd like--no surprise. I am considering going to a higher power rated amp, but before I do that, I wonder if the right speaker/cab combination might get me where I need to be. I'm close now. My current cab is an Avatar 1x12 with a Vintage 30. Would something like a 4x10 with efficient speakers work to boost apparent clean volume? If so, what speakers would you recommend (total 8 ohms) that would still sound sweet but would kick up my clean dbs?

BTW--The OTS Mini is said not to tolerate much by way of mods (ex: 6L6s won;t work....?). True? Thanks.

 

[homesick345]

Yeah - why would you want 6L6 - the JJ 6V6S are almost same power & sound of a 5881

As for speaker - I recommend the Eminence GB128: it's a great summary/average of all the good sides of the Celestion tones, good price, good power.

 

[telemnemonics]

The Celestion G12 65 is supposed to be a perfect complement for the D style amps, but I'm not sure of the efficiency.
I really like the discontinued Emi Red Ryder, which is a more efficient Celestion classic lead 80 clone, to me maybe like a 65 with more low mids, and the Emi efficiency.
A Red Fang or Celestion Gold might be nice, highly efficient favorites of mine but maybe not of yours. The Tonker is a solid speaker too, more even toned.
My impression is that D style amps do better with less colored speakers.
Mine has run through lots of different speakers and I haven't found a preference, including an old Celestion 65 that felt kind of dry, but I'm not really dialed in with the amp so can't say much except what I've read about speakers for them and my overall preference for speakers.
Look for a used EVM12L.

While the science of more efficient speakers is solid, I still feel like a 20w amp is a 20w amp. A V-30 is not super inefficient, so it's not going to be like moving up from a G12M25 where you gain 8-10 db.

I'd try 2x12 rather than 4x10, less cost and more options.

 

[JD0x0]

the JJ 6V6S are almost same power & sound of a 5881

14 watt dissipation vs 23 watts. IME, 5881 have tighter low end too. The trannys in these amps are pretty good IME (going by my '50 watt' running KT88's) you could probably get away with running slightly bigger tubes at a relatively cool bias . I'm not sure of the Phase inverter design it that amp, but it may be one of the lower headroom variant's like the 'bluesmaster' since this is a 'lunchbox' amp it may have been designed to have the power section break up a bit earlier, since most of the customer base for this amp is probably jamming at home, or at smaller venues

IMO, Vintage 30's stink with the D style overdrive. I'd go for a EVM style speaker. They stay clean and are fairly efficient. A closed back or ported cab would be the way to go, IMO. A 2x12 with an EVM mixed with another really efficient speaker would probably be great, too.

 

[homesick345]

14 watt dissipation vs 23 watts. IME, 5881 have tighter low end too. The trannys in these amps are pretty good IME (going by my '50 watt' running KT88's) you could probably get away with running slightly bigger tubes at a relatively cool bias . I'm not sure of the Phase inverter design it that amp, but it may be one of the lower headroom variant's like the 'bluesmaster' since this is a 'lunchbox' amp it may have been designed to have the power section break up a bit earlier, since most of the customer base for this amp is probably jamming at home, or at smaller venues

IMO, Vintage 30's stink with the D style overdrive. I'd go for a EVM style speaker. They stay clean and are fairly efficient. A closed back or ported cab would be the way to go, IMO. A 2x12 with an EVM mixed with another really efficient speaker would probably be great, too.

Funny you should mention the C "bluesmaster" - I played a friend's last week, I found it sounded awesome with humbuckers. Cleans are stellar. Really. Like big time stellar! Drive was awesome, bloomy, etc...

I was floored.

What do you know about this circuit? Why does it sound so good?

 

[JTStivers]

Thanks, all!

 

[uriah1]

A lot of mfg slapping in Creambacks also (65 hz or 75hz) mostly 65
also that WGS ET65 with more dope

 

[Piotr]

The Creamback is a great speaker, but not as efficient as a V30. If the V30 doesn't cut it volume-wise, you might be hardpressed to get more apparent loudness out of the speakers, unless trying to move some air with more speakers.

 

[MilwMark]

I used my OTS mini with a 210 G10 Vintage open back cab. In a medium-loud 5 piece band with 2 other guitars. The other guitars used a TRRI and an AC30. My OTS was plenty of loud and plenty of "clean" (tube amp clean) on the clean channel and of course there is the overdrive channel, which is even louder and has even MORE headroom than the clean channel, depending how you set it. I had headroom to spare, even in my busy 5 piece. In fact I was always stunned by how much headroom I had in reserve from a "20w" circuit. I think Dumble was very clever in how he designed these things to stay "clean" almost all the way up the dial if you want, or to overdrive very early and well.

So I guess I'd first look at whether your amp is healthy and how you have it set. As the only guitar in a trio I'd think you'd have headroom to spare. If you are looking for squeaky clean though, you're probably looking at a Jazz Chorus or Twin Reverb (or maybe a full OTS?). I don't think swapping speakers will get you there as the V30 is pretty efficient, as @Piotr notes.

I don't agree that the OTS doesn't like a V30. But I guess the other possiblility is that you don't like the slight "speaker breakup" that a V30 imparts. I love it. But you could consider finding an Eminence or WGS speaker that is at least as efficient as the V30 but more "American" style with less speaker breakup?

 

[JTStivers]

Mark--I realize from your post that I had the OTS set up to maximize the overdrive channel...maybe adjusting the master volume to be all the way up and the channel gain to be lower would do it, but then the OD has a different flavor, right? Anyway, I wonder if your 2x12 is doing it for clean headroom over my 1x12? Are you liking your clean tone? What time-based effects do you use, and how?

 

[MilwMark]

Mark--I realize from your post that I had the OTS set up to maximize the overdrive channel...maybe adjusting the master volume to be all the way up and the channel gain to be lower would do it, but then the OD has a different flavor, right? Anyway, I wonder if your 2x12 is doing it for clean headroom over my 1x12? Are you liking your clean tone? What time-based effects do you use, and how?

I was using a 2x10. My G10 Vintage speakers are 97db sensitivity. Your Vintage 30 is 100db. I don't know how to do the math on more efficient speaker vs. multiple less efficient speakers, but I would guess if anything it's a wash.

I actually don't have the amp any more. I moved to an Orange Dual Terror which did 2 channels in a simpler way for me. I did like the clean tone on the OTS though. I tended to run the Master high and use the channel volume as my "volume" for sure. The Overdrive channel broke up plenty, but more pleasingly, that way for me. I think I used the "rock" setting and the one that gave more midrange (?).

Pretty simple rig - all into the front end. Just delay for time-based, DD-2.

My only point is, I suspect the headroom is there if you want it. Whether you like the tone as much with that headroom deployed is another story. But if not, I suspect your answer is the full OTS, not more or different speakers.

Happy hunting.

 

[JTStivers]

Thanks, Mark.

 

[UsernameTaken]

Dumble recommended the EVM12L. I have one open back VHT 1x12 cab with a EVM12l and one with the Emmi Delta Pro which is the EVM clone. They are both fantastic. I have used the RWB, Wizard and Texas Heat with them but the EVM is always the winner with the Delta a close second.

I also agree that if you are looking for more clean headroom you need to go with more watts.
YMMV

 

[homesick345]

Dumble recommended the EVM12L. I have one open back VHT 1x12 cab with a EVM12l and one with the Emmi Delta Pro which is the EVM clone. They are both fantastic. I have used the RWB, Wizard and Texas Heat with them but the EVM is always the winner with the Delta a close second.

I also agree that if you are looking for more clean headroom you need to go with more watts.
YMMV

He also recommended Celestion.

 

[UsernameTaken]

Yup I believe Robben likes the the G12 65 as did others. I remember reading that Howard liked the constancy of the EV but shoot, in the last "D" thread I was told to stay in my lane cuz I did not own nor play a REAL Dumble. But whateves I have a Fuchs ODS and one of Nik's HRM's so the EV at the very least works for those quite beautifully.

 

[JD0x0]

He also recommended Celestion.

He also recommended and installed JBL's and Altecs. I'm sure a few amps had Jensens, as well.

Different players have different needs, and therefore require different speakers.

I'd really like to get my hands on a Fane Studio 12L, it's basically Fane's EVM 12L, but appears to have a slightly wider bandwidth.

There's basically 2 general types of speakers with these amps most often used. The PA type drivers, EVM, JBL, Altec which are flatter response and should have zero cone breakup/distortion. The Celestion and similar guitar drivers generally have more of an upper midrange peak, less low end response, more likely to have cone breakup/distortion (potentially less clean headroom)
It appears the PA type drivers often have a bit more sensitivity, but I also believe that the upper mid peak of the Celestion type driver causes more perceived volume to the ear, than the dB sensitivity rating of the speaker might have you believe.

 

[L.A. Mike]

Dumble recommended the EVM12L.

I remember reading that Howard liked the constancy of the EV

He also recommended and installed JBL's and Altecs. I'm sure a few amps had Jensens, as well.

In some of the Fender mods he did, he left the original Jensens in the amp. Mods like the Tweedle D which started out as a Fender deluxe reverb. They are low powered amps, so a lower power handling capacity speaker is ok.

As far as EVM's go, he would buy a bunch of them, test them, and usually only keep a couple. Most didn't meet his expectations. They aren't very consistent in his opinion. He even bought speakers in bulk from Mesa Boogie for a while. Their early Mark series amps had rebranded EVM's in them. I own a Mark I that I bought new back in the day. It has one in it.

I have a Ceriatone OTS 20 that a friend loaned me for local gigs where I don't need much power. I've been using an old Marshall 1x12 cabinet that I put a George Scholz Sugarcone 8ohm 12" speaker in. It sounds much better matched to the amp than a EVM12l or the Celestion Heritage that the Marshall cabinet came with.

 

[JD0x0]

I think Howard's speaker of choice for the Tweedle D was the Rocket 50 from celestion, IIRC.