Help Identify Muddy Waters's Guitar

[The Angle]

In the "Godlike Tone" thread, I nominated an iconic Muddy Waters tune, I Can't Be Satisfied. Of course I fell down a rabbit hole investigating what gear he used on that recording. What few sources I found agreed it was recorded on a 1940s Gretsch archtop with an added DeArmond FHC "monkey bar" pickup.

This led me to search for photos of Muddy with that guitar, with no success. I did find the shot below of Muddy with his wife Geneva and a guitar I can't identify. Could this be the Gretsch? I've found no 1940s Gretsch photos that match it, and the pickup is a DeArmond Rhythm Chief, not an FHC. Internet sources can be wrong about things like 70-year-old pickups, or maybe Muddy upgraded.

I think this should be an easy identification, given the distinctive inlays on the headstock and fretboard and the sharply pointed end of the fretboard. I don't recognize it and can't find anything that matches.

 

[trandy9850]

Looks like an old Harmony Cremona arch top in natural an added DeArmond pickup.

 

[brookdalebill]

In the "Godlike Tone" thread, I nominated an iconic Muddy Waters tune, I Can't Be Satisfied. Of course I fell down a rabbit hole investigating what gear he used on that recording. What few sources I found agreed it was recorded on a 1940s Gretsch archtop with an added D'Armond FHC "monkey bar" pickup.

This led me to search for photos of Muddy with that guitar, with no success. I did find the shot below of Muddy with his wife Geneva and a guitar I can't identify. Could this be the Gretsch? I've found no 1940s Gretsch photos that match it, and the pickup is a D'Armond Rhythm Chief, not an FHC. Internet sources can be wrong about things like 70-year-old pickups, or maybe Muddy upgraded.

I think this should be an easy identification, given the distinctive inlays on the headstock and fretboard and the sharply pointed end of the fretboard. I don't recognize it and can't find anything that matches.

Dunno, but great pic!

 

[The Angle]

Looks like an old Harmony Cremona arch top in natural an added DeArmond pickup.

Gotta disagree there. The f-holes, bridge shape, fretboard end, number of frets, inlays, tuning keys, and headstock shape are all different.

 

[boop]

Some kinda Kay. I like the inlays, and um, everything else about it

Circa 1955 Kay K-21 Sunburst Finish Vintage Archtop Guitar w/HSC | Reverb

c. 1955 Kay K-21 Archtop In Sunburst In Very Good Overall Condition (Please See All Photos) Original Sunburst Finish Shows Small Nicks And Scratches Frets In Very Good Condition With Lots Of Life Left Never Kluson Tuning Machines Original Bridge, Tailpiece, And Pickg...

reverb.com

 

[The Angle]

Some kinda Kay. I like the inlays, and um, everything else about it
View attachment 1080493

Circa 1955 Kay K-21 Sunburst Finish Vintage Archtop Guitar w/HSC | Reverb

c. 1955 Kay K-21 Archtop In Sunburst In Very Good Overall Condition (Please See All Photos) Original Sunburst Finish Shows Small Nicks And Scratches Frets In Very Good Condition With Lots Of Life Left Never Kluson Tuning Machines Original Bridge, Tailpiece, And Pickg...

reverb.com

The headstock shape looks the same and the inlays definitely match. The inlays are so distinctive it must be a Kay. Other differences can be chalked up to being different models. Time to search Kay archtops.

 

[trandy9850]

Some kinda Kay. I like the inlays, and um, everything else about it
View attachment 1080493

Circa 1955 Kay K-21 Sunburst Finish Vintage Archtop Guitar w/HSC | Reverb

c. 1955 Kay K-21 Archtop In Sunburst In Very Good Overall Condition (Please See All Photos) Original Sunburst Finish Shows Small Nicks And Scratches Frets In Very Good Condition With Lots Of Life Left Never Kluson Tuning Machines Original Bridge, Tailpiece, And Pickg...

reverb.com

That looks more like it.

Didn’t Harmony and Kay come out of the same factory?

 

[bottlenecker]

There might not be a picture of the guitar he recorded with.

 

[mandoloony]

That looks more like it.

Didn’t Harmony and Kay come out of the same factory?

Nope. Both from Chicago, but always separate businesses with separate factories.

 

[Wildeman]

Well....

 

[The Angle]

This site has a collection of Kay catalogs from 1953 on: Identifying Kay Guitars. It appears those inlays were only used on the top-of-the-line K-21 model, but by 1953 it already had a single cutaway. So at this moment, I'm assuming the pictured guitar is a pre-1953 Kay K-21, or whatever model preceded the K-21.

 

[Wildeman]

The DeArmond is a FHC and is a great sound, I have five of them.

Heres one on my '41 Vega that I permanently mounted. I just had this one out this morning.

 

[The Angle]

Well....

View attachment 1080508

I think that's the Silvertone that was stolen. The headstock logo looks more like "Silvertone" than "Gretsch." He bought the Gretsch to replace the stolen Silvertone, according to the worldwide web.

 

[Wildeman]

I think that's the Silvertone that was stolen. The headstock logo looks more like "Silvertone" than "Gretsch." He bought the Gretsch to replace the stolen Silvertone, according to the worldwide web.

It's a Gretsch Synchromatic 100. It's THE Gretsch.

 

[The Angle]

It's a Gretsch Synchromatic 100. It's THE Gretsch. View attachment 1080514

I stand corrected. That photo's a nice find.

 

[Wildeman]

It's in a old book on Muddy I have, it's a cool book, I'll see if I can find it.
It's this book.
Muddy Waters: The Mojo Man https://a.co/d/9yzmyYM

 

[kranz]

You can see the headstock here:

 

[telemnemonics]

That looks more like it.

Didn’t Harmony and Kay come out of the same factory?

Some confusion between those two came from the Stratotone, which Kay made and I guess Harmony also made a similar guitar with the same name.

 

[telemnemonics]

You can see the headstock here:

Yep all Kay all day!

 

[Gimble]

You can see the headstock here:

When zoomed in it’s clearly a Kay