Help, I can't turn down any more - or how do you deal with the sound police?

[HootOwlDude]

First off: though I have played live with a band a good number of times back in the day, I am not an active live player. But anyway, I get your view completely, but trying it your sound guy’s way just to be hospitable is not entirely a bad thing. Maybe it’ll work out, and at the very least, you’ve entertained his concerns! If you mic up to give him something to control, perhaps your stage volume can stay much the same, so long as he’s keeping things even from his end. If he wants you to try an attenuator for whatever reason—hey, at worst, a new toy to fiddle with. If whatever option doesn’t work for you, well, you can voice your opinion after having been a team player instead of coming off stubborn.

 

[Fluddman]

The good old Farmers Market test. I like it!

I never have people asking me to turn down. Just our Sound Guy!

 

[Fluddman]

First off: though I have played live with a band a good number of times back in the day, I am not an active live player. But anyway, I get your view completely, but trying it your sound guy’s way just to be hospitable is not entirely a bad thing. Maybe it’ll work out, and at the very least, you’ve entertained his concerns! If you mic up to give him something to control, perhaps your stage volume can stay much the same, so long as he’s keeping things even from his end. If he wants you to try an attenuator for whatever reason—hey, at worst, a new toy to fiddle with. If whatever option doesn’t work for you, well, you can voice your opinion after having been a team player instead of coming off stubborn.

I am not at war with the sound guy. But I want the band to be controlling the dynamics, not the sound guy. If we were playing stadiums or large auditoriums it would different but we typically play small venues and really we could do them fine without a sound guy.

If he thinks my guitar is too loud I usually do something about it. As we already discussed in this thread I suspect my amp beaming is probably the main issue - which is something I will address at the next gig.

Cheers

 

[Fret Wilkes]

Im playing a celebration of life, this Sunday for our dear departed soundman, and friend. He was a full band member, full pay.

He would ask me to turn down at times. I would, slightly. I trusted him, he trusted me. We worked towards the same goal. He did not want us to sound like so many cell phone videos you see where snare drum is dominant, guitar sounds like a mosquito, bass is nonexistent, and the vocal is STILL buried. I can't deal with that. Why bother? We never sounded "impotent", we always had a big round sound, with prominent vocals. The sound had balls!

Without him around, I feel a bit lost, and really wary of gigging. Apparently, the guy mixing on Sunday is a pro, and will deliver a good mix, with a wide sound. Pro or not, he's got a tough act to follow in our guy! We were blessed to have him.

 

[Fluddman]

Im playing a celebration of life, this Sunday for our dear departed soundman, and friend. He was a full band member, full pay.

He would ask me to turn down at times. I would, slightly. I trusted him, he trusted me. We worked towards the same goal. He did not want us to sound like so many cell phone videos you see where snare drum is dominant, guitar sounds like a mosquito, bass is nonexistent, and the vocal is STILL buried. I can't deal with that. Why bother? We never sounded "impotent", we always had a big round sound, with prominent vocals. The sound had balls!

Without him around, I feel a bit lost, and really wary of gigging. Apparently, the guy mixing on Sunday is a pro, and will deliver a good mix, with a wide sound. Pro or not, he's got a tough act to follow in our guy! We were blessed to have him.

Sorry for your loss. You were lucky to have a good one!

 

[Fiesta Red]

Man, times have changed.

I remember stacking my ‘63 Vibroverb (40 watts) on top of my ‘72 Bassman Ten (50 watts…I think?), mic-ing both the amps and also daisy-chaining a Line 6 POD into the PA, and running all of that (6x10” speakers, Lord only knows how many speakers and watts were in the PA) pretty hot, in a small nightclub with ~200 people in the audience…the sound guys would say, “Cool rig, man!

…and that doesn’t take into account the bassist or other guitarist!

Now, some sound guys can’t figure out how properly mic my single 2x10 Vibroverb.

Sad.

 

[Fluddman]

Man, times have changed.

I remember stacking my ‘63 Vibroverb (40 watts) on top of my ‘72 Bassman Ten (50 watts…I think?), mic-ing both the amps and also daisy-chaining a Line 6 POD into the PA, and running all of that (6x10” speakers, Lord only knows how many speakers and watts were in the PA) pretty hot, in a small nightclub with ~200 people in the audience…the sound guys would say, “Cool rig, man!

…and that doesn’t take into account the bassist or other guitarist!

Now, some sound guys can’t figure out how properly mic my single 2x10 Vibroverb.

Sad.

Yep times have changed.

For a long time my main amp was a late seventies twin reverb - 135 watts with JBL speakers. Can't remember anyone ever wanting to mic it up. Heck, sometimes it was the PA. Also a good heater.

Best clean amp / worst dirty amp. I loved it all the same.

 

[sax4blues]

Had the opposite problem today. Outdoor gig,asked the bass player to turn up three times. I think he was offended I didn’t respect how powerful his 1x12 amp is

 

[Riffi]

I typically gig with small amps 10 to 20 watts. I mostly use a Vox style amp made by Victory on its 12 watts low power setting.

My band plays at a moderate volume and we get gigs because of this. Even so, our sound man is on my case.

I suspect he wants total control of vocals and instruments. My experience, as both a player and sound guy, is that guitars sound best coming from guitar amps (ideally at the edge of break-up) and for the small venues we typically play, there is no need for guitars to be in the FOH mix.

I do however accept that a guitarist cannot reliably judge if they are too loud standing on stage - so I don't dismiss his opinion.

Sorry for being long winded, but now to the point.

Is it time to invest in a very nice attenuator like the Tone King Iron Man II or maybe try a Tonemaster with their excellent power scaling.

With more valve/tube amps than fingers, I am leaning towards an attenuator.

How are you managing to appease the sound police. I'd be interested in hearing about it.

Thanks in advance.

I bring my 65 showman and tell them to deal with it. Granted I play punk so yeh it comes with the territory

 

[davidp158]

I have struggled with my own volume issues, so I'm compelled to throw my bias into the mix.

Even a 12 watt amp can put out a LOT of sound, especially in small venues. My main amp is a Dr. Z MAZ Jr 2x10 combo (18 watts), which can be VERY loud on stage. I bought a Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb as a lighter option, but it is anemic compared to my Dr. Z.

A couple suggestions:

1. As others have stated, invest in a wireless system and get out into the room for a volume reality check. Wireless gizmos have never been cheaper, and certainly reliable enough for setting your overall volume. Defining a problem is the first step in fixing it.

2. While I like having my amp on the edge of break up, I am totally comfortable setting my volume to accommodate the venue, and adding an "always on" pedal that gives my guitars a bit of girth and sustain. I use a Greer Lightspeed pedal, set for very low overdrive, and it mimics the effect of my amps at the edge of breakup. You can also use a little bit of compression if you miss the perceived sustain of a turned up amp.

3. I believe the "beam" issue is more problematic in a small venue. The sound doesn't get to spread out, and patrons are much closer to your stage. Try some kind of baffle or plexi panel to attenuate the beaminess.

4. Don't point your amp at the sound man! Instead, use it as a stage monitor aimed at you, without disturbing the rest of the band. I find using my guitar amp as a monitor is more enjoyable because I can more accurately hear what I'm actually playing. If you do this, I'd bet that your sound person will (1) never complain about your level again, and (2) likely need to put your guitar into the PA.

5. Amp modeling and in-ear monitoring is becoming ubiquitous and some band and venues REQUIRE IT. I haven't gone that route, but I have heard bands pull it off extremely well. It may not be a solution for you, but it may be worth considering if you're on the fence.

Without witnessing your situation it's impossible to tell if your sound person is right, wrong, or maybe just not fond of electric guitar. I have run into sound techs who cripple the guitar levels at the get-go because they are tired of guitarists who, more often than not, are simply too loud. Ask your bandmates and reliable audience members for an honest evaluation of your stage volume. Is your sound person the ONLY person who has asked you to turn down, or has this been a trend you run into before? How often are you asked to turn up?

Good luck, and keep it fun!

 

[Stingfan73]

Even the honest third party will have their own bias. Friends of the singer always tell me the signer needs to be louder. Recently an audience member told me kick/bass sub needs to be much louder. The trusted guitarist could easily be biased to liking the guitar on top.

So if everything needs to be louder, then the mix is the same and nothing stands out more than before.

As I read OP the concern is player hearing himself to play confidently, the sound may be great in the audience. With this in mind I haven't see any discussion of monitoring. Does OP have a monitor which faces back? The guitarist I work with actually focus more on the monitor sound than their amp sound.

One common situation I have with guitarist is for soundcheck they will position at front of the stage, but behind the mains, which is no mans land, between the monitors and mains, and complain about the mix. I get them to walk 20+ feet out to the audience position and they hear how good it is.

We all have different kinds of friends. My favorite ones are those who know something about music, who are in bands and have been around the block, and who I can trust to give me honest assessments not only about opinion but also from FACT, borne out of EXPERIENCE- even if I might not like those assessments. Those kinds of people aren't common. That kind of honesty is the only bulwark against claims of "bias" is simply people you TRUST to be honest with what they say, because everything isn't merely opinion. Sometimes there are FACTS. If you don't have that trust, every other utterance is without value.

I do get what you're saying, however.

 

[sluglas]

Use an tilt back amp stand, put the amp behind you aimed right at the back of your head. That way it'll be loud enough for you and just right for everyone else.

 

[Old Deaf Roadie]

From behind the mixing console: it sucks having to mix the band around one guitar, whether it's because you can't get a sound below a certain setting or whether it is ego. It all sucks and if you make us do that, we will trash your band's name to each of our contemporaries. Twice.

Also from behind the console: Some amps just can't go low. I did shows with Foghat, no master volume on those Marshall's and the entire neighborhood complained. I understand. I like & use tubes, too.

From behind the console in 2025: What I see mostly these days are church groups coming to our venue, and they are overwhelmingly using modelers, drum barricades, and IEM's. Everyone is happy. They hear what & how much of what they want, I get total control of the room. Nobody said it would be inexpensive.

 

[loudboy]

Man, times have changed.

I remember stacking my ‘63 Vibroverb (40 watts) on top of my ‘72 Bassman Ten (50 watts…I think?), mic-ing both the amps and also daisy-chaining a Line 6 POD into the PA, and running all of that (6x10” speakers, Lord only knows how many speakers and watts were in the PA) pretty hot, in a small nightclub with ~200 people in the audience…the sound guys would say, “Cool rig, man!

…and that doesn’t take into account the bassist or other guitarist!

Now, some sound guys can’t figure out how properly mic my single 2x10 Vibroverb.

Sad.

50W Marshall JMP halfstack, other guy had a full Ampeg V4 stack.

Storefront bars, maybe 75 people or so.

No complaints, everyone just rocking.

 

[JPWFaith58]

50W Marshall JMP halfstack, other guy had a full Ampeg V4 stack.

Storefront bars, maybe 75 people or so.

No complaints, everyone just rocking.

….and now, everyone is deaf or has tinnitus (or both - like me).

 

[Fluddman]

I know there is a trend towards modellers and IEMs but that is overkill for small rooms. I want the band to balance itself which is near impossible if everyone is using IEMs.

My main issue was 'beaming' at the sound guy. The secondary issue was the sound guy having delusions of mixing in a stadium - not a small room where vocals should be his primary focus.

Anyway, several gigs later things have improved by angling my amp and telling the sound guy to concentrate on vocals.

Thanks for all your input.

 

[JPWFaith58]

I know there is a trend towards modellers and IEMs but that is overkill for small rooms. I want the band to balance itself which is near impossible if everyone is using IEMs.

My main issue was 'beaming' at the sound guy. The secondary issue was the sound guy having delusions of mixing in a stadium - not a small room where vocals should be his primary focus.

Anyway, several gigs later things have improved by angling my amp and telling the sound guy to concentrate on vocals.

Thanks for all your input.

IEMs? Right now, I’m resisting using hearing aids. Sure don’t wanna hear my playing thru a pair…

 

[LostGonzo85]

I do however accept that a guitarist cannot reliably judge if they are too loud standing on stage - so I don't dismiss his opinion.

This isn't always an option if the venue is really cramped, but I always try to place my amp as far back from me as possible, elevated, and angled inward so it acts as a side fill. It drives me nuts when I play a gig with another guitarist who insists on putting the amp on the stage floor right next to his feet facing directly out at the audience, meanwhile the entire time I'm like "Bro, you're too loud. Bro, you're too loud" and he has no idea because he can't hear it. Experiment with placement. Get a longer cable and the amp on a crate on a line with the drummer I often find that if I can set the amp up so it isn't pointed at the sound engineer, I can turn my amp up to 5 or 6, do my soundcheck with a typical rhythm volume (volume knob on the guitar rolled back slightly), generally avoid being asked to turn down, and then when it's time to solo I have a little headroom to play with and no one ever complains. Don't piss the sound guy or gal off during soundcheck and you'll get more leeway throughout the gig when they realize you actually know what you're doing.

That said, some situations are tough. I briefly played a gig at a church that used IEMS and wanted all the amps off the stage for a clean look, and even with something like a Marshall Class 5 or a silverface Champ backstage, behind plexiglass, it was always too loud. I was like "You gotta be kidding me". In retrospect that's a situation where I honestly feel like a modeler would've been superior. Hate to say it, but the modelers have gotten good enough that if I'm between a modeler and using a bigger tube amp but choked by an attenuator and baffled and turned down way below the sweet spot, I'm giving the modeler some serious thought.

 

[Fluddman]

This isn't always an option if the venue is really cramped, but I always try to place my amp as far back from me as possible, elevated, and angled inward so it acts as a side fill. It drives me nuts when I play a gig with another guitarist who insists on putting the amp on the stage floor right next to his feet facing directly out at the audience, meanwhile the entire time I'm like "Bro, you're too loud. Bro, you're too loud" and he has no idea because he can't hear it. Experiment with placement. Get a longer cable and the amp on a crate on a line with the drummer I often find that if I can set the amp up so it isn't pointed at the sound engineer, I can turn my amp up to 5 or 6, do my soundcheck with a typical rhythm volume (volume knob on the guitar rolled back slightly), generally avoid being asked to turn down, and then when it's time to solo I have a little headroom to play with and no one ever complains. Don't piss the sound guy or gal off during soundcheck and you'll get more leeway throughout the gig when they realize you actually know what you're doing.

That said, some situations are tough. I briefly played a gig at a church that used IEMS and wanted all the amps off the stage for a clean look, and even with something like a Marshall Class 5 or a silverface Champ backstage, behind plexiglass, it was always too loud. I was like "You gotta be kidding me". In retrospect that's a situation where I honestly feel like a modeler would've been superior. Hate to say it, but the modelers have gotten good enough that if I'm between a modeler and using a bigger tube amp but choked by an attenuator and baffled and turned down way below the sweet spot, I'm giving the modeler some serious thought.

Thanks - some good ideas! I think your other guitarist is in my band too! What does the church band do with drums?

When we play on larger stages there usually isn't a problem. Unfortunately for a lot of gigs we squeeze bass, drums, keys and two guitars into a small space, so my options for amp placement are limited. I've been using a tilt back stand when there's room and a milk crate when there isn't. Seems to be working better.

Part of my problem was also the sound guy wanting everything in the PA mix which is unnecessary in a small room. So I've instructed him to let the guitar amps carry the room.

Cheers

 

[Fluddman]

I have struggled with my own volume issues, so I'm compelled to throw my bias into the mix.

Even a 12 watt amp can put out a LOT of sound, especially in small venues. My main amp is a Dr. Z MAZ Jr 2x10 combo (18 watts), which can be VERY loud on stage. I bought a Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb as a lighter option, but it is anemic compared to my Dr. Z.

A couple suggestions:

1. As others have stated, invest in a wireless system and get out into the room for a volume reality check. Wireless gizmos have never been cheaper, and certainly reliable enough for setting your overall volume. Defining a problem is the first step in fixing it.

2. While I like having my amp on the edge of break up, I am totally comfortable setting my volume to accommodate the venue, and adding an "always on" pedal that gives my guitars a bit of girth and sustain. I use a Greer Lightspeed pedal, set for very low overdrive, and it mimics the effect of my amps at the edge of breakup. You can also use a little bit of compression if you miss the perceived sustain of a turned up amp.

3. I believe the "beam" issue is more problematic in a small venue. The sound doesn't get to spread out, and patrons are much closer to your stage. Try some kind of baffle or plexi panel to attenuate the beaminess.

4. Don't point your amp at the sound man! Instead, use it as a stage monitor aimed at you, without disturbing the rest of the band. I find using my guitar amp as a monitor is more enjoyable because I can more accurately hear what I'm actually playing. If you do this, I'd bet that your sound person will (1) never complain about your level again, and (2) likely need to put your guitar into the PA.

5. Amp modeling and in-ear monitoring is becoming ubiquitous and some band and venues REQUIRE IT. I haven't gone that route, but I have heard bands pull it off extremely well. It may not be a solution for you, but it may be worth considering if you're on the fence.

Without witnessing your situation it's impossible to tell if your sound person is right, wrong, or maybe just not fond of electric guitar. I have run into sound techs who cripple the guitar levels at the get-go because they are tired of guitarists who, more often than not, are simply too loud. Ask your bandmates and reliable audience members for an honest evaluation of your stage volume. Is your sound person the ONLY person who has asked you to turn down, or has this been a trend you run into before? How often are you asked to turn up?

Good luck, and keep it fun!

David - thanks for the informative post. I love point 4!

Most of my issues arise when we play small rooms. The sound person is usually the only one asking me to turn down - mainly in small rooms where the amp is beaming in his direction.

The sound person is a friend of the band so I believe he is being legitimate. However having spent time talking with him, some of the issue was him wanting the guitars quiet so he could mix them in the pa. Which is not my preference in a small room (and often in larger rooms).

Cheers