Help, I can't turn down any more - or how do you deal with the sound police?

[Fluddman]

This stirs up so many feelings and memories. The bottom line is I have played with IEMs for the last couple years and detest them. I might as well be playing by myself in a sound booth. The vibe and energy from the other band members is gone. I have no idea what I or the other band members sound like at any one time (yes, I know you can control your own mix). I used to play with a small amp and point it at myself and away from the audience. To the OP, I don't know what to say other than sound guys can do so much to help or hurt and they are pretty much in control once you get started. Good luck.

Hi Controller @Controller

I've tried IEMs and like 'em but we choose not to use them (except for our keyboard player) because of the isolation. We really interact with each other and the audience - can't do that using IEMs.

Hard to find good sound guys. Not much money in it.

Our guy is a decent bloke - so we'll work it out.

Cheers

 

[hotraman]

Yes ... turn the amp back towards you and drop a SM 57 in front of it.
Or get into the modeling game. I know ... it had to be said.

 

[Fluddman]

So, now you can bring your old 5-watt Big-Band amp to a gig and have it sound like an orchestra in the room/hall

Check out our Band (with 5-watt Marshalls) if you like:

Chillin with the Gods (Live) by Sounds like home

Chillin with the Gods (Live) - Hi! A new live-take from our studio - enjoy! #rock #singersongwriter #indierock #garageRock #GUITAR

soundclick.com

cheers - 68.

@68goldtop - 5 watt Marshalls. Nice!

I like having the headroom for clean sounds but other than that my band could get by with 5 watt Marshalls - there's really not too much difference between 5 watt, 10 watt and 15 watt.

 

[turftone]

You have to use the right approach when dealing with control freaks. Start with the amp as low as possible and let him tell you to turn it up. When you do ("how's that?") he'll think you're cooperating and complying with his authority and you'll be good at probably the same volume that he told you to turn down.

 

[Fluddman]

You have to use the right approach when dealing with control freaks. Start with the amp as low as possible and let him tell you to turn it up. When you do ("how's that?") he'll think you're cooperating and complying with his authority and you'll be good at probably the same volume that he told you to turn down.

A cunning plan! I like it!

 

[cyclopean]

Yep - guitar amps definitely on the way out. No amps on stage becoming the norm.

I'm too old to change

i almost never see that. the one funny exception was amon amarth.

 

[GotA24Fretter]

I can almost guarantee the issue is the beaming. Small amps don't have enough power for filling a room with low end, so all the sound guy is hearing is upper mids--and confusing that with volume. If your tone were bigger and warmer those frequencies wouldn't stand out as much. Ironically, your solution might be to use more or bigger amps. A small amp dual mono setup or a single 35w+ amp would have enough low end to warm up the higher frequencies when running without sound reinforcement.

The baffle + mic would work too as it will enable the sound guy to eq the guitar accordingly--but then you're handing your sound over to someone whose judgment you already question.

 

[loudboy]

I've been on both ends of the snake, for 50 years or so, a few thoughts:

A band that can balance themselves onstage, will always sound good out front. It's not hard to do, with correct amp placement and solo boosts, etc. You should be able to sound perfect with only Vox in the monitors.

Rock bands are loud. The continual battle between bands and soundguys/venues is due to the fact that small venue/restaurant owner like the idea of live music, but not the reality of it. The only real solution is to play bigger venues.

Playing at volumes as low as some venues demand is self-defeating - no one in the audience will give a crap about you, and you'll wind up being all bummed out and playing lackluster shows, and then complaining that no one cares about live music anymore. Why should they?

The unmiked snare drum sets the baseline volume for the whole mix.

 

[Grandfunkfan]

I'm right where you are, low wattage tube amp edge of break up, smallish venues. 2 places don't have a p.a. so we bring ours and a board and run our own sound. The other place has a sound man that we don't argue with. We pretend to go along with the program and once we start playing we adjust. Between sets he hassles us again and we go along and turn back up. We honestly don't play any louder than to.keep.up with the drummer and the place is small enough we don't need to run through a p.a. except the keys and vocals. It's just part of the deal. If you can get a p.a. and a board you have a chance, but its just the way it is
.

 

[Hiwatts-n-Gibsons]

I am mic'd up - but mainly because the keyboard player uses in ears.

In the small venues we play there is little need for the guitars to be in the front of house mix - if they are balanced with the drums the guitars are usually loud enough to carry the room. On the low power setting my amp is just starting to break up at this point - so to me at least this is ideal.

We use the same sound guy all the time. I actually own the PA - so all he does is mix.

Does he know what he's doing? Good question - we get good feedback from the punters so I guess so. But I suspect he is doing more tweaking than he needs to .

Cheers

It's your PA, the band is happy with the sound, and he's complaining about doing what you paid him to do? There's a problem with this picture, and it isn't your stage volume.

 

[redchapterjubilee]

Sign me up as another vote for amp tilt and/or turning the amp backwards or towards the side of the stage. I also keep a Vox mv50ac in my gig bag and will plug it into whatever cabinet or combo I have with me if the dB Police is in full effect. It has a master volume and while I do not prefer it to any of my other amps it has come in handy for these situations.

 

[ruger9]

Speaking of turning the amps, we have turned our amps inward... meaning instead of putting them behind us blowing out into the crowd, we put them on the sides of the stage, blowing across. Helps FOH not be overpowered, but helps us (2 guitars) hear each other better (than we would be turning the amps down as per the sound man's request).

 

[ScottJPatrick]

Sound men!
Grrrrrr.
Some so and so with an IPad, trying to “play” the entire band.
Grrrrrr.
%@$%&* em’, all!

I did the sound for a friends band a few weeks ago and was given the iPad to mix it all down. To be fair it was all pretty well done anyway beforehand so all I had to do was levels on the night for solos etc. Went fairly well until during the 3rd song when the iPad went to sleep, did I know the passcode? Eh, no! Got it sorted between songs but lesson learned, for both me and the band!

 

[Trenchant63]

I’m wondering if the problem is overdriven guitars and a lot of players needing “edge of breakup” to come directly from the amp itself vs outboard pedals. It sounds like a ton of issues with sound people going on. I've not really had any issue with sound people but I don’t need to crank the amp to get my sound. I use pedals for OD and dial it in - no issues and have not gotten into conflicts with most sound people when mic’ing amps or running the pre-amp into the PA. I did once have a sound guy meet me at the door in a worship scenario and say “take the amp back to the car - in ears here and we’re all set with guitar - just plug in”. It turned out not to work that day and I had to bring in the amp and mic it.

 

[sax4blues]

OP, what would your response be if he told you to turn up louder?

 

[rze99]

Attenuator

 

[srblue5]

I did the sound for a friends band a few weeks ago and was given the iPad to mix it all down. To be fair it was all pretty well done anyway beforehand so all I had to do was levels on the night for solos etc. Went fairly well until during the 3rd song when the iPad went to sleep, did I know the passcode? Eh, no! Got it sorted between songs but lesson learned, for both me and the band!

"Can you give us some more vocals in our monitors?"
"I want to but I can't!"

 

[Fluddman]

OP, what would your response be if he told you to turn up louder?

Normally, that would be quite a surprise.

But it did happen last week - two songs in, I was asked to turn down. I turned down a lot and it wasn't anywhere near loud enough. By the end of that set the rest of the band complained that they couldn't hear me. The sound guy finally told me to turn up. Yes, I enjoyed that moment. But I didn't enjoy the first set much.

 

[Fluddman]

I’m wondering if the problem is overdriven guitars and a lot of players needing “edge of breakup” to come directly from the amp itself vs outboard pedals. It sounds like a ton of issues with sound people going on. I've not really had any issue with sound people but I don’t need to crank the amp to get my sound. I use pedals for OD and dial it in - no issues and have not gotten into conflicts with most sound people when mic’ing amps or running the pre-amp into the PA. I did once have a sound guy meet me at the door in a worship scenario and say “take the amp back to the car - in ears here and we’re all set with guitar - just plug in”. It turned out not to work that day and I had to bring in the amp and mic it.

I do use pedals for overdriven sounds. To me, the sound and feel is so much better when the amp already on the edge of breakup. I use smallish amps so this happens at a moderate volume. But some small amps are beasts - a cranked AC 15 can roar.

I did sound nearly every weekend for over twenty years before I cut back to play guitar more. It was obvious to me that guitarists at all levels couldn't tell if they were too loud. And, yes, some didn't care but most did.

So when a sound guy tells me to turn down I listen and consider it.

Apart from 'beaming' the issue I need to resolve with my sound guy is to let the guitar amps carry the room. I like this best for the small venues we play in.

I did sound last night for a private function in a big yard. Vocals only in the PA - it sounded great. The guitars and bass balanced with the drums and I set the vocal level. Sometimes simple is best!

Cheers

 

[24 track]

I am responding here with out reading the prior posts, so don't be angry if it is a repeat answer ,
part of the issue is a speaker is a parabola this means that the speaker from your amp projects to a certain focal point about 10 -25 feet ( roughly) in front of you amp you don't hear it because of your proximity to to the amp.
if you like your amp sound , then get an amp stand that faces up to you and not straight ahead that way you can set your sound as you hear it at levels you can work with, another option is to turn the amp around facing back stage and mic off to the front end that the sound guy can blend you into the front mix.,
I had a guitar player that set his music man 2 X12 combo on 11 and ripped my face off it was so loud, so I elevated it to his ear level and guess what his volume came down once he could hear himself.

Toby Keith's band had all of the amps behind the backdrop curtain facing to the back of the stadium and mic'd off to the front of house and to the floor monitors , ZZtop had 1 4X12 cab each except Frank who had ear monitors on stage the signal went to an Iso box mic'd and sent out front.

this is not a new problem but a matter of physics , use it to your advantage