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Has anyone here used Minwax Polycrylic on a sparkle guitar?

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by JAckal66, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. JAckal66

    JAckal66 Tele-Meister

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    I am looking for a cheaper and less poisonous way to finish guitars.
    In a Facebook group, there is a guy that sprays .025 glitter thru a HVLP electric sprayer.
    Then, he does a few coats of plain clear.
    The clear he is using is Minwax Polycrylic.
    With the water base, he can clean up quick and easy.
    He sprays as long as temperature is 55° or above.
    I have been using the 2K hardened automotive clear..
    My best results are 90° temperature, and a respirator.
    Then, I stay out of there til the next day.
    You have to be careful of bubbles from outgassing.
    I want to try this Minwax.
    A respirator is always used when spraying anything.

    My method is to do a base coat, then spray a tacky coat of clear.
    After a few minutes, sprinkle on metalflake.
    As it drys, press down the metal flake.
    Then spray clear over it to bury it.
    Thanks for any info.
     

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  2. mfguitar

    mfguitar Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    I only use water borne clears, but I have never used over flake. The clear is really thin but you can put a lot of coats on in a relatively short period of time. It will take a lot of coats to get a build, Varathane has a triple thick clear that might be worth trying.
     
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  3. Jim_in_PA

    Jim_in_PA Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    I have used Polycrylic for utility purposes. It's not a terrible product and Minwax certainly has had a few terrible products over time, subjectively speaking. It sprays nicely, but I much prefer Target Coatings or General Finishes waterborne products.

    I have never sprayed over a flake type setup, but I don't see any issues as long as there are no adhesion challenges. IE, I don't know anything about the flake product, it's binder and what it takes to get something to properly adhere to it. Worse case, you may need to spray a barrier coat of something to handle that challenge. With wood finishes, I tend to use wax-free shellac for that, and that would likely work here, too. It would also warm it up a bit...many waterborne finishes have a "colder" hue and the Minwax product is right up there in the "blues" in my experience.
     
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  4. JAckal66

    JAckal66 Tele-Meister

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    Thanks for the info.
    I'll practice on some scrap.
    Some of the cabinet buildera love the Minwax, but weren't sure about the sparkle , either.
    One said to watch the spray time.
    2 coats within 2 hours????? Or wait 72 hours to repeat.
    I am leary about sanding between every 2 coats.
    It usually takes around 6 to bury the flake enough so that you won't scrub it with sandpaper.

    Will Polycrylic stick to itself, without sanding?

    Thanks
     
  5. RodeoTex

    RodeoTex Doctor of Teleocity

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    Minwax poly sprays on nicely and all but it also yellows pretty quickly.
    You might want to take that into account.
     
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  6. JAckal66

    JAckal66 Tele-Meister

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    Ok. Thanks. I didn't know that.
     
  7. Meteorman

    Meteorman Tele-Afflicted

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    i spray minwax polycrylic almost exclusively now, and have had no yellowing issue.
    the oil-based polyurethane does yellow
     
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  8. bgmacaw

    bgmacaw Poster Extraordinaire

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    I used it on my hydro dip paint job on my Mosrite JR style kit. It has worked out great.
     
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  9. Vizcaster

    Vizcaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    That may be the key question. if it doesn't burn-in then if you try and sand while there are flakes that aren't fully covered yet, they get all fuzzy instead of sparkly. if you don't sand it might not adhere, or you might get witness lines later when you sand it back to try to get the top of it level.

    Target Coatings EM6000 burns into itself without sanding. I believe they even have a high-build version which might be well suited to your application. For guitars I use EM1000 sealer (sometimes tinted) and EM6000 clear coat. For furniture I like their WVX.

    Has anyone tried laying down a squeegee coat of Z-Poxy, then sprinkling on top of that with sparkle before it kicks? not to sidetrack the thread, though, since that stuff is not exactly something that you can spray and it certainly doesn't wash up with warm soapy water like waterborne coatings do.
     
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  10. JAckal66

    JAckal66 Tele-Meister

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    Thanks.
    That's what I'm wondering,too.
    I probably should stick for the automotive clear.
    A heavy solids build up.
    Then after the 1st two coats, take a scotchbrite pad a scuff it a little.
    In the past, if the first 2 coats don't cover enough, you can knock the color off of the corners.
    Thanks again for that info.


    I don't mind the toxic clean up.

     
  11. Jim_in_PA

    Jim_in_PA Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    He's asking about the water borne Polycrylic product...it's more blue than amber for sure.
     
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  12. Jim_in_PA

    Jim_in_PA Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    Correct...EM6000 burns in and EM7000HB also burns in; they are essentially the same finish, but the EM7000 is a higher solids product. Target developed these finishes over many years specifically to emulate that particular quality of solvent based lacquer. It's not easy to do with an acrylic. ;) Interestingly, I've also taken to tinting the EM1000 for "first steps". :)
     
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  13. Vizcaster

    Vizcaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    My understanding is that the Target sealer (EM1000) is polyester whereas the topcoat (EM6000 and 7000) are acrylic. The sealer bridges well and avoids pinholes or grain printing through as the finish shrinks back so long as anything that needed a grain filler was filled. The acrylic topcoats EM6000 and 7000 will burn-in to themselves even months or years later (I've done spot repairs on a guitar neck that still haven't shown any witness lines).

    They also make tougher finishes with polyurethane and polycarbonate resins (EM8000 and EM9000) but those won't burn in so you can get witness lines if you sand back to buff them out (they work fine if you buff them off the gun or just leave them, like my front door and mud-room bench).


    SO i'd be curious to see if the EM7000 high build finish would work for the sparkle application.
     
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  14. Jim_in_PA

    Jim_in_PA Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    The only Target product I haven't used yet is the EM9300 (polyester)...they've been my primary source since 2003 for waterborne finishes. I have something coming up where the EM9300 will come into play. It's also exterior rated for when that's important. EM8000cv is a conversion varnish, BTW...no polyurethane resin in it. It's been my go-to for a number of applications including this "kitchen continent" top for a client...two years in and it's pristine which is pretty kewel considering this is VG D-Fir. Crosslinker was employed for additional chemical durability.

    [​IMG]

    I agree that it would be interesting if EM7000 does the job for the sparkles!

    For folks interested in these products...get on their mailing list so you have the discount codes when you order...that generally takes about 20% off.
     
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  15. sleazy pot pie

    sleazy pot pie Tele-Afflicted Gold Supporter

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    I reached out to target after reading this thread as I wanted to find out the answer. This is what I got back-


    Dear Mr. Pot Pie
    Thank you for your inquiry. I have not done a lot of R&D with metal flake in any of our Emtech top coats, however, I do know that predispersed metallic paints such as Golden Fluid Acrylics will work in our EM7000HBL when added at no more than 5% by liquid volume. With this said, if the flake you are using is not in a dispersion and is a powder or solid flake format, it should blend into our EM7000 with no issues. You will have to do some tests on your own accord to see if they remain in suspension long enough to flow into pattern while the coating is leveling and drying.
     
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  16. Jim_in_PA

    Jim_in_PA Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    That sounds promising relative to getting the mixture of the finish and flake to work. I guess the real trick will be the spray setup to pass the flake while maintaining acceptable atomization of the EM7000. I also suspect that the extender/retarder will be necessary to give extra time for everything to lay down.
     
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  17. sleazy pot pie

    sleazy pot pie Tele-Afflicted Gold Supporter

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    How does shooting WB differ from nitrocellulose lacquer as far as air pressure and size of the needle used?
     
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  18. Jim_in_PA

    Jim_in_PA Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    It's not different...it's still based on viscosity. WB does tend to be more viscous than solvent based lacquer. So depending on the type of gun you use, you often may need to use a slightly larger needle, etc., for WB than you would for the "equivalent" solvent based product. Now my gun is pressure assist with a 3M PPS cup which really helps deal with viscosity. I can push some pretty heavy stuff through it that would not likely work with a gravity gun or even the older HPLV conversion gun I used to use. (a Wagner) I'm using 1.3mm or 1.5mm for the heavy stuff and 1.0mm for most clears. I only spray WB or shellac and for the latter, I use my old gun to simplify cleaning.

    What I was referring to in post #16 is if the flake is physically in the finish being sprayed. That kinda alters the situation because of the size of the flake. I was speculating it might be a challenge, but I have no experience with flake.
     
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  19. sleazy pot pie

    sleazy pot pie Tele-Afflicted Gold Supporter

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    I have shot some flake. I mixed it into intercoat or clear base coat- different names for the same thing- followed by clear coat. the intercoat/clear base is generally 2:1 so 2 parts clear to 1 part reduced.
    the clear I used was 4:1
    The flakes I shot were larger .008 and .015 and a little .004
    It took quite a bit of trial and error to get it done. I am interested in trying wb finishes as I get tired of the mess the solvent based , especially the auto urethane, makes .
     
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  20. Jim_in_PA

    Jim_in_PA Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    "Today's" waterborne finishes are pretty darn good and yea...getting rid of that VOC is a nice thing from a personal safety perspective. I've actually never sprayed solvent based lacquer. I went right to waterborne from the get-go back in the early 2000s because there was no way for me to have a safe spraying environment in my shop for the nasty stuff. I don't even like using rattle can stuff inside! Personal protection (respirator/glasses) is still required for waterborne, but no fancy "explosion proof" ventilation is needed. Honestly, waterborne products make for a lot more folks being able to get into spraying finishes. I encourage you to try them out...Target Coatings, General Finishes, Crystallac, etc, all are worthy, IMHO. Like with any "new to you finish', you'll want to burn some on paper and scrap getting the right gun setup, but it will be worth your time.
     
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