Happy Columbus Day

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Gardo, Oct 11, 2021.

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  1. Opt_234

    Opt_234 Tele-Meister

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    The pandemics were already occurring for centuries before Columbus
     
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  2. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    My North America includes the Bahamas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America#Countries,_territories,_and_dependencies

    But who am I to talk? I live in ... British ... Columbia -- that's a double-barrelled settler name. Beat that!
     
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  3. _MementoMori_

    _MementoMori_ Friend of Leo's

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    Nice try, Big Brother.
    Human beings do awful things to one another because human beings suck. But human beings also do wonderful things to and for one another because human beings, despite sucking, also have the potential for incredible good. This applies to Christopher Columbus, the natives, and anyone else who will ever draw breath. A person's negative qualities do not negate their positive qualities or accomplishments.
     
  4. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    And it's important to acknowledge both, and not sweep stuff under the carpet.
     
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  5. buster poser

    buster poser Friend of Leo's

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    :) Fair enough, mainland... assumed it clear. It's still awfully weird and completely ahistorical to celebrate the man as someone with deep, abiding roots in our society. He was a figurehead/blank slate onto which a new nation could impose a fresh identity. Howls of revisionism are hilarious, the dude as we know him today was invented during the American Revolution.
     
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  6. _MementoMori_

    _MementoMori_ Friend of Leo's

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    Nice try, Big Brother.
    I don't disagree.
     
  7. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    I could never figure out how he got to Ohio.
     
  8. buster poser

    buster poser Friend of Leo's

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    A little poem by Phyllis Wheatley got him to a lot of places.
     
  9. Opt_234

    Opt_234 Tele-Meister

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    Hispaniola and the Caribbean are part of North America
     
  10. buster poser

    buster poser Friend of Leo's

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    That's nice.
     
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  11. THX1123

    THX1123 Tele-Holic

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    One can read the diary that Columbus actually wrote himself, and the letters he wrote and sent back to Europe. One can read how he described the Arawak people he met at Eleuthera, in the Bahamas, where he landed. He clearly outlined what his plans were for the Arawak people in no uncertain terms. I've stood at that exact place on the east coast of Eleuthera. I imagined the Arawak paddling out to give Columbus and his crew gifts and food, unaware of what was to happen to their culture.

    Spoiler alert: Columbus carried out those plans and things didn't end well for the Arawak, who were enslaved to dig for non-existent gold, and were effectively erased from history and from existence. Mr. Columbus, however, was not.

    I've always been confused by why many modern internet-type folks only know how to attack. How does one grow as a person that way? Simple solutions for complex problems or questions, and repeating hollow jargon-filled apologetics are almost always indicators that something unsavory is lurking.

    Some folks do not read history, or accept ideas and facts that are not consistent with what they already think. I accept that that is their choice. I suppose it is easier that way. Much easier than actually creating a valid argument, or discovering that what they have been led to believe might actually be no more than mythology. I imagine that could make someone who is compelled to broadcast such shortcomings feel foolish.

    Happy Columbus Day!
     
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  12. Doomguy

    Doomguy Tele-Meister

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    Yes, because actual, documented history (like the encomienda system) is revisionist propaganda to make Americans and white people look bad. I hate to break it to you but I'm a history major, studying this type of thing is kind of my deal. The level of ignorance in this comment is pretty astounding to me but I'm not here to argue with you, or anyone really. Columbus just wasn't the heroic, discoverer figure that he was made out to be. Nothing will change that.
     
  13. GeneB

    GeneB Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    Not a school holiday in Florida nor I suspect do they teach about it. Somewhere I heard : In 1493 Columbus sailed the bright blue sea :rolleyes:
     
  14. Opt_234

    Opt_234 Tele-Meister

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    lol holy **** :lol::lol:
     
  15. Opt_234

    Opt_234 Tele-Meister

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    lol

    kids these days
     
  16. Doomguy

    Doomguy Tele-Meister

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    I can't take you seriously when you can't even use capitals or punctuation. Welcome to my ignore list.
     
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  17. telestratosonic

    telestratosonic Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    A belated Happy Columbus Day!
     
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  18. SixStringSlinger

    SixStringSlinger Poster Extraordinaire

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    The whole Columbus Day thing is weird, and probably a symptom of a greater weirdness in our culture.

    Columbus did not discover America, or North America, or the United States. There were already people there. They, or rather their ancestors, discovered the continent/area/dirt and rivers and mountains. The fact that they did not go back to where they came from to announce it is irrelevant. The fact that they were likely just moving along and not looking for anything other than somewhere to live is irrelevant. The first people at a place by definition discover that place. Columbus was not among those first people. That should be pretty uncontroversial.

    Columbus was not even the first European to find "The New World". But let's set that aside, because his arrival here did set in motion a lot of soon-to-follow European activity here. That he found what he found by accident is irrelevant. That someone else would have done it and occupied a similar place in human history had Columbus not is irrelevant. Much consequential history has a lot of accident to it. Columbus' arrival in the New World was a huge freaking deal (or at least would eventually become so). It's a historical turning point in human history. That should be recognized. Perhaps even commemorated. It's important. This should also be pretty uncontroversial.

    Now, Columbus' arrival and the European explosion it set off also had a lot of ill effects for the people already here. Exploitation of the people as slaves. Eradication because they were in the way and inconvenient. The exploitation of resources without regard to those who already relied upon them, due in part to cultural ideas like the impossibility of things like resource depletion and extinction because these would imply an imperfect world. Even accidental stuff like exposure to illnesses native people hadn't had a chance to develop an immunity to. These are bad things that happened to these people, and which were the start of a long, sad history of bad things being forced onto the people already here by the relative newcomers. So while Columbus' arrival was consequential and important, it's also understandable that a lot of people don't want to celebrate it. That, again, should be pretty uncontroversial.

    There's a difference between commemorating and celebrating. "Thing should not be forgotten" should not equate to "Hooray, thing!" I don't believe anyone is saying that Columbus should go into the dustbin of history. That'd be ridiculous. He didn't create this world, but the world would be very different (not necessarily better or worse on the whole, but different) had something like his arrival here (and its consequences) not happened, and the way it happened to happen was with Columbus. What people are saying (both very reasonably and in very large numbers) is that this history should be placed in context, and that when you do so, the resulting picture is both more complex and darker. It's good, because it helps us understand how we got to the world we live in today, and understanding things is good, but it does shift things away from "Yay, Columbus!"
     
  19. jondanger

    jondanger Poster Extraordinaire

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    Bill Cosby was funny. But I don’t laugh at Bill Cosby anymore.

    Art Monk was a great WR. And it seems like he was a great guy! But I don’t wear my Art Monk jersey anymore. Because it has a hurtful and insensitive caricature of a Native American on it.

    Roald Dahl was my favorite author when I was a kid. I don’t read . . . oh who am I kidding I still read his books to my kids nobody is perfect. Likewise Joseph Conrad, HP Lovecraft, etc. Well I don’t read Lovecraft to my kids. Yet.

    Reassessment of the individuals who we venerate is appropriate and good.
     
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  20. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    (Puts on some Wagner.)
     
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