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Guitar Shop Sales BS?

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by Tootone, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. wabashslim

    wabashslim Friend of Leo's

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    To answer the OP question, YES, this is sales guy BS. The Deluxe & Deville are two different amps. One is designed to output 40 watts, the other 60. The circuits are similar but the supply voltages are different as I noted already. No way will any load change affect the output wattage to any significant degree. Whatever differences are heard are the result of different speakers/quantities/cabinets. Give it a rest.
     
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  2. jazzguitar

    jazzguitar Tele-Afflicted

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    Yes, the amps are the same but their power supplies are different.

    Like a particular car model available with different engines.
     
  3. Snfoilhat

    Snfoilhat Tele-Afflicted

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    Thanks! (If you have the extra secondary) this seems superior to a manual impedance selector switch or just living with an impedance mismatch in the vintage style.

    Found the part: https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/jack-switchcraft-14-mono-2-conductor
     
  4. Old Tele man

    Old Tele man Friend of Leo's

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    But, really only 100% effective *IF* the owner plugs in the correct impedance external speaker.

    Using a single 8Ω external speaker is correct, but if the external cabinet is 2-speakers, the odds are they're two 8Ω speakers in parallel, which is a 4Ω load...unless, it's two 4Ω speakers wired in series, which would be correct. Thus, 50% chance of screwing up.
     
  5. wabashslim

    wabashslim Friend of Leo's

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    Yep - like trying to turn your 327 into a 427 by changing to a non-restrictive air cleaner.
     
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  6. MrCairo46

    MrCairo46 Friend of Leo's Gold Supporter

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    Once in a store playing an inexpensive but nice amp a GC sales person approached and shared he had the same amp but sold it because he needed a louder one. I said why not just daisy chain it and run a cable from the 2nd input first amp into the 1st input second amp. For the money it was a cheaper option. Young guys eyes got real wide and and he shared something about galactic destruction and a tear in the space time continuum.
     
  7. wabashslim

    wabashslim Friend of Leo's

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    Instead of "amp" don't you mean "channel"? Otherwise he's still buying another amp - not cheaper.
    And besides, daisy chaining channels won't increase the amp's total volume. That's determined by the output section and available power. That's why the young guy's brain black-holed on you.
     
  8. Tootone

    Tootone Tele-Meister

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    Holy Transformers Batman!!

    Thanks guys/gals for such a thorough and comprehensive analysis.

    It was a long but fair fight and the engineers win on points. Sorry Mr Sales Dudes - you lose.

    What I meant by edge of breakup is the point/volume on the clean channel where if you hit the strings really hard, only then, the tone becomes overdriven - not clean. By hitting hard think Pete Townsend windmilling an open A chord on Wont Get Fooled Again.

    If you have the clean Vol on 12 it is deafening but it is overdriven. The headroom for pure un-distortable clean with Texas Specials set low is about 3-4.

    So at Volume 4, in the massive open space of the shop, it didn't sound loud enough to compete with drums. Cue Salesman chat and subsequent BS regards DeVille.

    However I bought the Deluxe, took it home and totally agree it is plenty loud enough at vol 4.
    It makes the chandeliers rattle and my pant legs flap.
     
  9. brookdalebill

    brookdalebill Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    At various times in my illustrious career, I have done music store retail sales.
    I have about 12 years of music store experience.
    I have witnessed a few of my co-workers BS-ing and misinforming customers.
    Some of the BS-ing was the result of ignorance, some arrogance, and some manipulation.
    Not much "vetting" of these employees was done by employers, especially in "big box" type stores.
    I found it less common in Mom & Pop stores.
    When shopping for gear, do the homework yourself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
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  10. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Two things....that windmilling action in and of itself does not have to guarantee that the pick is hitting those strings as hard as one might think. Player control can still have some say in what the pick does at the strings. And....P.T. always used big amps....the HiWatts in particular yielded big cleans.
    Suggestion.....try a 5751 in V1. It will give you better control over what goes on there and will also make the overdrive functions more musical, ime.
     
  11. jazzguitar

    jazzguitar Tele-Afflicted

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    Well as the name implies his job is to sell, not to educate the customer.
     
  12. tele_player

    tele_player Tele-Meister

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  13. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

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    If you plugged a cab into a vintage amp and halve the impedance on the output transformer you could in theory liberate more power. But Wally is on the money. There are other limits - tubes and power supplies don't respond linearly to extra current demand (if you can't increase voltage, you'd need extra current to ramp power up). Doubling speaker area does give more perceived volume but sorta negates the advantage of a combo. The o/t can also reduce or throttle power. There was a series of DIY Playmaster valve amps here in Oz the 60s using topcap 6DQ6 tubes, same P/t and the 40 watter used 6DQ6As while the 60 watter used 6DQ6Bs and a different o/t. That was Electronics Australia projects and they were very clean amps.

    However I'd also concur - one bandmate has a 40watt Blues Deluxe and another in another band a Hotrod Deluxe single speaker that are both five-year yo so I presume 40 watts. Both are way, way loud on clean channel on about '3'. I've never heard breakup from either at loud drummer levels. Gotta be something wrong with that amp.
     
  14. Tootone

    Tootone Tele-Meister

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    Nothing wrong with the amp.

    As you turn up the Clean Volume, the signal gets progressively more hair on it until it is actually quite furry at max (12).

    From 1 to 4 its still as hairless as a Yul Brinners head on his way back from the Turkish Barber shop.
    At around volume 5, no pun intended, the 5 O'clock shadow starts to appear.

    That's THE sound I've been looking for. Clean with the barest hint of overdrive when you dig in.

    It is loud at 5, I've still not had a chance to test if 5 is loud enough to compete with various drummers on the local Wednesday night rock and blues jams.

    ... perhaps I should Soundcloud an example.
     
  15. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    tooTone, that amp is likely biased very cool.....ime, when those amps are biased to at least 50% of max plate dissipation, they warm up and are much richer harmonically.
     
  16. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    While the science behind how many watts it takes to be louder is solid, it misses the fact that what you're looking for is more clean headroom, not more volume.

    Running power tubes at higher voltage increases clean headroom more noticeably than volume, so you could turn up the clean channel to a noticeably higher volume before it distorts.

    Running a pair of 6L6 at 425v gives little clean headroom (compared to 6L6 at 460v), and it's possible that the Deluxe doesn't even produce 40w "at clipping", or when it just starts to distort.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  17. Tootone

    Tootone Tele-Meister

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    like telemnemonics said....

    Its about headroom. The transition between 100% clean and 100% clipped or distorted is gradual/spectral.

    The first signs of clipping occur around vol5 and only when you play hard.
     
  18. Tootone

    Tootone Tele-Meister

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    I just want to say thanks to all of you who responded, and was surprised by the level of thought and effort you put in.

    Tomorrow (Saturday) I will have owned the BDRI for 2 weeks, and still have the option of returning it, and claiming it was mis-sold. Before buying the amp I specifically said that STAGE LOUD CLEAN was my reason for shopping. And right next to the BDRI was a Twin Reverb RI (black face) and a Hot Rod Deville 4x10. I could have bought either of those instead even though they were 1000AUD and 600AUD more respectively. I didn't even plug in to either because the sales guy had me convinced these were both THEATRE VENUE LOUD and were both way OTT unless I was doing massive venue or outdoor gigs. As mentioned in OP I was sold on buying a 112 extension cab instead once they were in stock.

    What I haven't mentioned is that my normal gigging amp before this purchase was/is a Vox AC30 c2x. I love it to bits, it just cant do that Fender Clean tone. Although it does have a lovely clean chimey tone it always has some grit in it which is increasingly present as you raise the overall volume to drummer level. Directly - it doesnt have a lot clean headroom.
    So I went shopping for an amp with more clean headroom than my AC30 and came back home with an amp that, as is now apparent, has LESS clean headroom.

    You can understand how much of an idiot I feel.

    I've started searching and reading loads of older threads on the BDRi in here and the gearpage and Strat forum etc.
    It turns out there are dozens of threads, some dating back to 2006, started by BDRI owners with exactly the same issue - the BDRI starts to overdrive on the clean channel around VOL 4-5, and they just cannot get a loud enough clean tone to compete with the drummer/rest-of-band volume.
    What I found amazing in all those other threads is (just like this one) there is always at least one guy who states that "their BDRI produces ear shatteringly loud clean tones so there must be something wrong with the OPs amp".

    I wonder if it's the same guy replying to all of them? Or if his amp is a one off mistake from the fender factory where a Twin Reverb amp chassis accidentally got installed in a BDRI cabinet? Good luck to him/them anyway.

    Loud is subjective. Loud to me is high enough decibels that will compete with a burly heavy handed drummer in a pub/club. Loud to another person is something that will "wake the baby".
     
  19. -Hawk-

    -Hawk- Friend of Leo's

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    To put my post context, I play in a 6 piece band. I run my HR Deville 2x12 (that has a low gain V1 tube) at appx 1.5 for practice and maybe a teeny smidge higher for gigs. It's freaking loud. I can push it to hairiness with a boost and humbuckers.
     
  20. Tootone

    Tootone Tele-Meister

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    I have no doubt the Deville is very loud and clean. Its probably the amp I should have at least tried and maybe would have bought.

    I just cant understand how some claim that vol 4-5 on the Blues Deluxe is extremely loud.... it just isn't. Vol 12 is very loud but sounds like Angus Young mid solo. Im not saying its quiet, its just not loud enough.
     
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