Guitar players should pick up the piano!

[Chicago Matt]

Or a keyboard nowadays... I said to myself a few days ago - timer to learn the piano. And honestly, it kinda feels like cheating, as it seems to be so easy and intuitive. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean synchronizing hands or any advanced passages, but music theory, chords, movements. It feels to me like music theory was made on the piano!

If you need examples:
Harmonizing a C major scale on guitar, means you need to learn all the major, minor7, dominant chords on your way. On the piano? You keep the same fingering and just move up a notch. What???

Building chords..try to remember all the fingerings and string jumping.. u less you stick to bar cords, or other repetitive shapes, it is a lot of memory work, specially in the Spanish tuning. On the piano? Pretty much same regularity up and down.

My first week of learning the piano connected a lot of dots in my head as a guitar player. And made music theory so much easier! I recommend to everyone, to have a try

Great thread! I started playing piano at age 5. I didn't start guitar until 13 or 14. But I've always felt I had a big head start, as I already understood chord theory, harmonizing the scale, and visualizing chords before ever picking up the guitar. It developed my ear to where I could here a song on the radio and figure out the chords quickly. Shortly after picking up the guitar, I gradually let the keyboard go (shouldn't have done that). But when I think about the notes in a chord, I still visualize the keyboard. It's all right there in a line.

 

[RollingBender]

I’m not a great guitar player but good enough to have been playing in trios for 35 years. I would trade my guitar chops to play keyboards at the same proficiency in a heartbeat.

 

[radtz]

I thought this was going to be a body building thread.

 

[telestratosonic]

Great thread! I started playing piano at age 5. I didn't start guitar until 13 or 14. But I've always felt I had a big head start, as I already understood chord theory, harmonizing the scale, and visualizing chords before ever picking up the guitar. It developed my ear to where I could here a song on the radio and figure out the chords quickly. Shortly after picking up the guitar, I gradually let the keyboard go (shouldn't have done that). But when I think about the notes in a chord, I still visualize the keyboard. It's all right there in a line.

Yes, great thread!

About visualizing the keyboard when playing guitar: interesting. I never got deep into the piano before I started playing guitar so I've never visualized chord notes the way you do. Playing up the neck, I have the shape of Cmaj or Fmaj/Fm open (cowboy) chords in my head.

I started playing the saxophone in the mid-eighties when my older boy joined the Lions Club youth band. I bought an an alto saxophone for him but he lost interest after a couple of years. I didn't and kept playing it; the beauty of it being that I had only the treble clef to read, lol.

When playing in a Major key, I always visualize an open (cowboy) C chord on the guitar. When playing blues tunes like Spoonful, I always visualize F Minor (or Gm, Am etc.) chord.

I've often wondered about horn/brass players who have never played keyboard or guitar: how do they, if at all, visualize key notes? What do you think?

 

[Killing Floor]

You gotta use the legs. Not the back.

 

[Knows3Chords]

Well, that attempt went south quickly!

View attachment 1068407

That's gonna leave a mark.

 

[robt57]

I don't know, I haven't seen a single guitar player that could pick up a piano. Even the small upright pianos are too heavy to pick up. Keyboards, yes. Piano, no.

Yeah, we just moved my kids to her place. She moved out 2 years ago. 400 lb. Been naging for the entire 2 years, then just got a u-haul trailer and the right dolly/tool.

Legs my ars! Use a nifty double piano dolly system.

My 30 year old and me, 65 year old with hernia [35lb max, right] Got it into the U-Haul. On step. the other side was 5 ppl and a couple steps.

Anyway, we all should be aware of this apparatus. It has straps that hold both sides tight, and the handles make it less of a nightmare and more of a dream..

 

[Fredhead59]

I was playing piano before a guitar was in my hands.
Organ/piano/synthesizer (a real '70s type not what is called a synth these days),6/12 string guitar and 4 string bass (no 5 or 6 string) for me.

 

[richiek65]

I prolly should get a cheap electric piano to learn on (daughter not living with us has a Casio that sounds amazing and cost about AU$800 new about 10 years ago) because one day I'm gonna get me a B3!

 

[BrazHog]

Thumbs up to those forumites that grew up with a piano in their house, or were able to buy a piano (and a Shelby Cobra) with their paper route money. Growing up, thinking of owning a piano would have been for me as realistic as thinking of nowning a Lear Jet.

But, I was lucky enough to have the next best alternative. Allow me a brief digression...

I may have been 16 or 17 at the time, played bass with my friends in a rock band. I also played a bit of guitar at home, and was (of course) dismayed at the whole F barre chord affair.

The guitar player in the band was taking lessons at the time, and knew his stuff, so I went and asked him what's the deal with chords, and especially with those confounded barre chords. And he very patiently wrote an explanation for me -- I think it was two pages, including a diagram of the piano keyboard, the stacked triads thing, and how, for example, the notes in the cowboy C chord all corresponded to the notes in the triad. My mind was blown!

(Although, on the other hand, that meant there was no escape to making the barre for the F chord -- alas!)

So yes, playing the piano is super helpful for learning theory. But absent a piano, some intellectual curiosity and a friend who knows what's what will do.

On the other hand... those "David Gilmour with just one note, maaan" types... you could implant a Steinway in their occipital lobe, and it would be a waste of time.

 

[BrazHog]

On the other hand, sus chords are dead easy on the guitar whereas piano players have to get all fussy about "quartal harmony"

Oh, piano players are fussy about everything. Who do you think named the notes things like "submediant" and "supertonic"?

 

[Knows3Chords]

I prolly should get a cheap electric piano to learn on (daughter not living with us has a Casio that sounds amazing and cost about AU$800 new about 10 years ago) because one day I'm gonna get me a B3!

I got a cheap Casiotone CT-S200 keyboard for this very reason.

 

[cyclopean]

Lift with your legs, not your back.

 

[mycroftxxx]

Standard notation is actually just "tab" for piano.
Change my mind.

Challenge accepted!

Here’s how it’s different:

(1) The intervals along the staff are not consistent. The staff only shows the notes on the white keys, so the half steps between the B-C and E-F intervals look exactly the same as the whole steps between the other notes. In guitar tab, the interval between fret numbers is always a half step, because that’s how the guitar fretboard is laid out.

(2) As soon as you move away from the keys of C Major or A Minor, sharps and flats rear their ugly heads, and as you get further away from the key signature, you just have to remember they’re there. If you’re playing in G or F, or their relative minors E or D, not too bad; G/e is a one-sharp key signature (F#), and F/d is a one-flat key signature (Bb). But playing in basic major keys like D, A, and E are 2-, 3-, and 4-sharp key signatures, respectively. You really have to memorize the key sigs and practice, practice, practice the subtle and not-so-subtle changes to the fingerings, especially if you want to transpose and/or improvise. For guitar tab, you could mostly just add/subtract an offset to the fret numbers to transpose (it’s a little more work to handle open strings, but you get the idea).

(3) Do I need to add more, like, say, bass clef?

Seriously, I suspect you’re being somewhat facetious, but I thought it was at least somewhat worthwhile to point out a few things. Personally, I think that piano and guitar have different learning curves at different points in the trajectory of a student. For a beginner, piano is easier than guitar because it’s easier to hit the keys consistently vs contorting your hand to fret the strings cleanly and quickly. As you get more to intermediate, guitar becomes easier, at least for “popular” as opposed to “classical” music, because the geometry of the guitar makes it straightforward to reuse shapes and techniques all over the neck; the intermediate pianist is still memorizing all those slightly different fingerings for chords in different keys, and improvisational technique is another mountain to climb. At the expert level…I’d say there are just some things that are very difficult on guitar because of the limitations of six strings and the geometry of the human hand.

At some point, I want to revisit keyboards (I’ve had a few years of lessons) but guitar is more what I want to do right now. If I had a good keybed and drawbars for a B-3 though, and a good Leslie emulation…

 

[bottlenecker]

Challenge accepted!

Here’s how it’s different:

(1) The intervals along the staff are not consistent. The staff only shows the notes on the white keys, so the half steps between the B-C and E-F intervals look exactly the same as the whole steps between the other notes. In guitar tab, the interval between fret numbers is always a half step, because that’s how the guitar fretboard is laid out.

(2) As soon as you move away from the keys of C Major or A Minor, sharps and flats rear their ugly heads, and as you get further away from the key signature, you just have to remember they’re there. If you’re playing in G or F, or their relative minors E or D, not too bad; G/e is a one-sharp key signature (F#), and F/d is a one-flat key signature (Bb). But playing in basic major keys like D, A, and E are 2-, 3-, and 4-sharp key signatures, respectively. You really have to memorize the key sigs and practice, practice, practice the subtle and not-so-subtle changes to the fingerings, especially if you want to transpose and/or improvise. For guitar tab, you could mostly just add/subtract an offset to the fret numbers to transpose (it’s a little more work to handle open strings, but you get the idea).

(3) Do I need to add more, like, say, bass clef?

Seriously, I suspect you’re being somewhat facetious, but I thought it was at least somewhat worthwhile to point out a few things. Personally, I think that piano and guitar have different learning curves at different points in the trajectory of a student. For a beginner, piano is easier than guitar because it’s easier to hit the keys consistently vs contorting your hand to fret the strings cleanly and quickly. As you get more to intermediate, guitar becomes easier, at least for “popular” as opposed to “classical” music, because the geometry of the guitar makes it straightforward to reuse shapes and techniques all over the neck; the intermediate pianist is still memorizing all those slightly different fingerings for chords in different keys, and improvisational technique is another mountain to climb. At the expert level…I’d say there are just some things that are very difficult on guitar because of the limitations of six strings and the geometry of the human hand.

At some point, I want to revisit keyboards (I’ve had a few years of lessons) but guitar is more what I want to do right now. If I had a good keybed and drawbars for a B-3 though, and a good Leslie emulation…

The idea of "tab" is a paint-by-numbers kind of thing that tells a person where to put their fingers. I can't imagine a much simpler way to tell someone which keys to push on a piano than standard notation.

I think you're making arguments for why standard notation is piano tab. The key signature even lets you know ahead of time which black keys, if any, you'll need.

 

[Festofish]

I felt the same. I recently grabbed a keyboard off the local auction for peanuts. I was surprised at how easy it was. Just basics but so cool. It’s the same language.

 

[Chester P Squier]

The first instrument I learned to play was the piano. I was 9. I came home from the first lesson playing a song that had the words "Now we start with lesson one. Making music is such fun. " The first line was right hand on middle C and the D above it, (both below the treble clef staff), and went C-D-C-D-C-D-C. The second line was middle C and B (both above the bass clef staff) and went C-B-C-B-C-B-C.

My 8-year-old brother was furiously envious and insisted that he get lessons too. So he started next week.

I totally recommend learning piano for any musician.

Bonus--if you play both piano and guitar, you can understand chords and theory MUCH better.

 

[Old Deaf Roadie]

I would offer that all musicians should learn the piano.

 

[ClashCityTele]

I have an old Yamaha keyboard somewhere. Haven't played it for years.
Maybe I should start again.

Years ago my Dad bought a huge Yamaha keyboard that did everything, including recording.
He spent the first 2 weeks reading the instruction manual.

When I saw it, I switched it on, set a reggae rhythm, added a bass line & then some sax & hit record.
I played it back to my Dad & he was amazed. 'How did you do that?'.
I just pressed a few buttons Dad!!!

 

[Chicago Matt]

Yes, great thread!

About visualizing the keyboard when playing guitar: interesting. I never got deep into the piano before I started playing guitar so I've never visualized chord notes the way you do. Playing up the neck, I have the shape of Cmaj or Fmaj/Fm open (cowboy) chords in my head.

I started playing the saxophone in the mid-eighties when my older boy joined the Lions Club youth band. I bought an an alto saxophone for him but he lost interest after a couple of years. I didn't and kept playing it; the beauty of it being that I had only the treble clef to read, lol.

When playing in a Major key, I always visualize an open (cowboy) C chord on the guitar. When playing blues tunes like Spoonful, I always visualize F Minor (or Gm, Am etc.) chord.

I've often wondered about horn/brass players who have never played keyboard or guitar: how do they, if at all, visualize key notes? What do you think?

Good question. I know a great saxophonist, Randy Hunter, who has talked to me about his approach to improvisation. He taught my son for several years and I always went to his lessons. Here's one of his videos:



He is always aware of the chord changes and knows all the sharps and flats of the key he's playing in. He resolves phrases to chord tones as he's playing. He knows all the arpeggios for all the chords in all the keys. He's like Guitar George of the saxophone!