# Gravity and Dark Energy physics

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by ASATKat, Aug 31, 2019.

1. ### ASATKatFriend of Leo's

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There is a lot of talk about Dark Energy. We can't see it but it's there, like magnetism.

Take a bottle with 50% oil and 50% water, the two substances will separate with the oil floating on top.

My question is,, when the oil is finding its way to the top, does it exert a downward force on the water or does the water exert an upward force on the oil? Is it mutual?

I just watched a video on gravity and dark energy where matter and dark matter is also a simple atraction and repelling force, the dark energy being the repellant and the energy part of matter is the atractant.

I can easily see why matter would be attracted to the mass of the earth and dark matter trying to go in the opposite direction, like magnets.

That downward force on mass is gravity.

This is different than the typical gravity visual of the earth sinking 1/2 way into this 2d enough to cause matter to "roll" or get attracted to the center. That never sat well with me. I have always thought it had more to do to some sort of "osmosis" type of attractive force, or repulsive force, high pressure being attracted to low pressure.

Did I make enough sense to comment on?

Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
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2. ### 1300 E ValenciaFriend of Leo's

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I think a certain Professor Einstein has a theory you might enjoy...
All the "sinking of the earth" takes place in four dimensions, not two. The matter "rolling" around the massive object is moving from a high energy level to a lower energy level, the same as your "high pressure to low pressure".
Of course, "osmosis" proves that there is no gravity, the earth sucks!

I am most likely relatively wrong about all of this.

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3. ### Chief101Tele-Meister

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One of Newton’s theories say, and I paraphrase, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So, the forces applied by the oil and the water to one another should be equal, right?

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4. ### Blue BillPoster Extraordinaire

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"Osmosis!"

LOL. My neice is an MIT grad physicist and a Youtube star. She spent her first year after school, a mile underground in Ariziona, working on a project attempting to detect this "dark matter". She says it's theoretically there, but as of yet, undetectable by humans. It "exists" because according to what we know now, the universe is significantly heavier that it "should" be, based on our calculations, based on observations of how things move. The term dark matter was made up to name the "missing" mass. This is her:

Other people think the missing mass is contained in fractal black holes that exist in every atom, planet, solar system, galaxy, etc.

Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
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5. ### BristlehoundFriend of Leo's

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Watch this space!

6. ### MiddlemanFriend of Leo's

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There are some older theories that are starting to reemerge that counter dark energy and dark matter. As a result, some theorists are speculating that its all convenient math and fundamentally these two do not exist. Space is warped by an abundance of black holes and the expansion we are observing could be local to our region of space and the impact of local black holes. The view that space is uniform in all directions has always seemed odd because water flows fast or slow depending on gravity and landscape. The same could be true of space. Our whole galaxy could just be floating in a fast moving part of space. So that's what we observe, this unexplained faster than light expansion of the space around us (that we can see). Maybe a million light years away, their surroundings are expanding much slower. No one really knows the shape of space, all our theories are based on uniform microwave radiation which, once again, may be familiar to our part of space but not the case for all regions of space.

Another thing, they recently did the most accurate measurement to date for dark energy and came up with nothing.

7. ### TeleTucsonTele-Afflicted

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For your oil and water, read up on buoyancy ... Archimedes figured this stuff out 2200 years ago.

For your questions on dark matter, coming to TDPRI for answers is like going to Pep Boys for a second opinion on an upcoming surgery

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8. ### 1300 E ValenciaFriend of Leo's

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The "pull" of gravity is the same for any object (ideally in a vacuum). Galileo proved this with his famous experiment (possibly apochryphal) at the Tower of Pisa. It was in all the papers. I think you're leaving out friction, which is the effect of "landscape".
Gravity is 32 ft/sec/sec. Once you eliminate friction (wind resistance is another example), a one pound object and a fifty pound object fall at exactly the same rate.

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9. ### ASATKatFriend of Leo's

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TTF as I call it, is exactly the the sort of people I want to positively engage.

10. ### RipthornTele-Afflicted

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As a physicist myself, I quite enjoy this kind of stuff. Now, I'm not a theoretical astrophysicist, but rather an acoustic physicist, but I played in a band where the drummer was a theoretical physicist specializing in black holes and neutron stars. We talked about some of this stuff occasionally.

Right now dark matter and dark energy are called dark because we can't detect them yet, but according to our current mathematical models something has to be there, so we gave it a name. Antimatter is similar in that according to the math, it has to be there. We've made a little more progress there.

We like to think of ourselves as advanced and enlightened, but there is so much in nature that we don't understand. Take deep ocean biology, for example. The cosmos are another example. In school, we had to calculate the energy radiation from a black hole using Hawking's method and the classical method. My two answers were off by 3 orders of magnitude (about 1000 times different) and I went to the professor a little troubled as to why. His response was "This is cosmology, orders of magnitude come and go. Your answers are exactly right." We really don't know as much as we think we do about the world around us, but to me that just adds to the excitement of what there is to learn.

11. ### ASATKatFriend of Leo's

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Everything I'm talking about is talking to your second word in your response. You said "pulled" meaning you have a pulling force.

But what about being pushed to the earth, not pulled. That would mean there is a mass of energy, like entering a pack concert that needs to be above my pushing me downward.

So not pull, but push. There is a HUGE difference in the two mechanisms. Just like helium, is it being pushed or being pulled upwards. This force is inside the balloon and changes to rise regardless of the rubber boundry of the balloon, it doesn't matter, this force seems to know no boundaries.

A very weird thing about this invisible force is, you can't escape the force, you could isolate yourself, be cut off inside a deep cave and isolated inside a room with 50 ft thick walls of lead and still be a slave to this gravity force, to me that's very strange, we can't escape it, no matter what. I'll still weigh the same, and my center of balance will be the same.

Anyway, crazy stuff, matter doesn't matter.

Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
12. ### ASATKatFriend of Leo's

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13. ### AsmithFriend of Leo's

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Im not going to go into the dark matter thing (since scienctists cant make sense of it and I certainly cant).

The water is more dense than the oil so it will displace the oil below it. When the water and oil come into contact they will bounce off eachother like the oil molecules will bounce of eachother and the water molecules will. No molecule is pushing another molecule in any particular direction, they will just keep doing it as long as the water and the oil have kinetic (and/also thermal) energy.

The water will sink to the bottom and the oil will sit on top because that is the situation where there is least amount of (gravitational) potential energy stored.

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14. ### bgmacawFriend of Leo's

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But how does dark matter affect guitar tone?

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15. ### LetItGrowToneTele-Meister

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It has been said that "all mathematicians are Platonists". But when I was young and said I was thinking about the possibility of avoiding that fate I was called a Pythagorean. Well, I'd rather be a Pythagorean but it's a lonely place. It's lonely because there are neither mathematicians nor physicists there, as the latter became Platonists too, somewhere along the way. I suspect that one fine day, maybe with the help of AI, physicists will be forced to accept that it was a mistake. Maybe a lot of mystery can be untangled after that.

16. ### geoff_in_ncFriend of Leo'sSilver Supporter

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Just witnessed gravity...

I was sweeping around my guitar/amps and bumped my Tele ... it fell sideways off the stand and landed on the underside of the ball on the headstock on a lino floor....KERTWANG!... they always seem to fall in slow motion when you're just out of arms length and have to watch a tele fall.....

During the fall I went from mild panic to mhea it's a tele.. not the first time it's hit the deck.... it'll probably knock the neck out of alignment a bit...swept the sweepings into the dustpan then picked the tele up......

Not so... the neck didn't move and it was a bit flat on the tuner..... gave it a comforting wipe down with an old Tshrit and put it back on it's stand.....

Tele defeats gravity...again...

18. ### RecceFriend of Leo'sSilver Supporter

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I watched my Martin do that. No harm no fowl it fell face down on a carpeted floor. Not even a scratch. Scared the bejeezuz out of me.

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19. ### ArtslapTele-Afflicted

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Wrong. (Sorry 1300, I had to call this)

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24068-gravity-map-reveals-earths-extremes/

In that classic high-school experiment (a feather and something else dropped at the same time inside a vacuum), the effect of gravity on two objects will not be the same.

The two objects do not occupy the same space, therefore their individual paths (towards the centre of the earth) will be different. Different densities along that path, hence different gravitational forces acting on the two objects.

The difference would be extremely small, invisible to the naked eye, but the two objects will not hit the bottom at the same time.

This "Gravity is the same" idea should be seen for what it is, 16th Century thinking.

And no, he couldn't do the fandango.

CP.

Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
20. ### 4pickupguyPoster ExtraordinaireSilver Supporter

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We are not even sure the same physics apply in other parts of the universe....
Inflation, that one blows my mind.

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