Grandpa's shooting score from 1940

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Mbechmann, Aug 20, 2016.

  1. Mbechmann

    Mbechmann Friend of Leo's Ad Free + Supporter

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    As you know, grandpa passed away in July. One of the things that we just found was his score card from when he was in the army.

    I was wondering if somebody who shoots can help decipher how he did.

    The 761 is my grandpa's military number

    The Gev 89 in the top. I think that means Krag-Jørgensen M1889 Carabine which is what they used back doing ww2.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krag–Jørgensen

    Colums say:
    Day - Shooting no - Range in meters - Shots fired - Score - Shots hit target - Points - Signature

    IMAG0760.jpg IMAG0763.jpg
     
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  2. troy2003

    troy2003 Friend of Leo's

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    I'm sorry I can't help but that is an awesome memento!
     
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  3. Starting 2 Old

    Starting 2 Old Tele-Meister

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    Just guessing here, as I've not seen the target used. It would appear that it was a conventional bulls eye of concentric rings with 10 points for the center, and decreasing score as you go farther from center. What is missing is any sense of the time allowed for each string of shots.

    Working on the right page, there were 7 strings shot at 15 meters and one at 100 meters.
    The first one is 3 shots scoring 10, 9, and 4 for a total of 23.
    The fourth string is 10 shots scoring 4 threes and 6 twos for a total of 24.
    The fifth string is interesting because he fires 15 shots and misses 4 times, and his hits are all 2's and 3's. This is at 50 feet or so with a rifle. I would assume there was some type of pressure, limited time, or some other stressor to account for this.

    Left page - String 15 is at 250 meters, 2 threes and 2 misses, total 6 - Then the next string is 200 meters, 4 hits, and then 400 meters and 4 good hits. For some reason we're not told how many shots were taken for these strings.
     
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  4. Deeve

    Deeve Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    Cool time capsule. Will my great-grandkid feel the same way abt found recording of me trying/failing/trying again on some lick. Kinda like target practice.
    A little more random, though.
    Peace - D
     
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  5. Mbechmann

    Mbechmann Friend of Leo's Ad Free + Supporter

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    Yea I agree. We are finding a lot of things like that in the papers. We are slowly getting his story about when he was a freedom fighter as well.

    I forgot. The second picture - the left side of the page. Thats shot with a Madsen machine gun.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madsen_machine_gun

    As for the test and target. As far I have been able to find out it is like a normal shooting gallery target. The one difference is the distance.

    My problem is that I have only ever shot a rifle once, so I dont know if the scores are good or not. I see specs on wikipidea that the m1889 has an effective range of up to 900 meters.
    Like 3 shots from 100 meters (aprox 105 yards) with a 9-10-10. Or like a little bit lower at 400 meters where he scored 6-6-6-6. Is that a good score? I guess its a good score but I have nothing to compare to.
     
  6. Mbechmann

    Mbechmann Friend of Leo's Ad Free + Supporter

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    Oh I almost forgot. I found referencies that these training shots were done standing up both with the machine gun and the rifle. There are suppose to be another test for the machine gun where you were laying down on the ground. But we dont have the result from that test.
     
  7. BobbyZ

    BobbyZ Doctor of Teleocity

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    They didn't use the "30/40 Krag" in WWII that I know of. It'd been replaced by the "03 Springfield" before the first World War and even that was in short supply so the "17 Enfield" was supplemented during WWI.
    However I'm sure for training they used about anything that would shoot at the time. But the standard issue WWII rifle was the M1 Garand, of course the M1 Carbine and also the A3 03 Springfield. There was also the Peterson (?) semi auto that saw some use. And who knows what else in the early part of the war before production ramped up.
    Pretty amazing how war production came up to speed so fast after December 7, 1941. A huge factor there was they knew we'd be involved and already had a plan of some sort in place.

    Wish I could make sence of those scores. That's a really cool piece of history from a very interesting time.
     
  8. Harry Styron

    Harry Styron Friend of Leo's Gold Supporter

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    What is the language written on the score sheet?
     
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  9. troy2003

    troy2003 Friend of Leo's

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    Looks Norwegian to me
     
  10. Mbechmann

    Mbechmann Friend of Leo's Ad Free + Supporter

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    Actually you are close, Troy. Its Danish, so it closely related to Norwegian. :)


    Thats all true - for USA. Not for Denmark. The Krag-Jørgensen M1889 was the model used by the Danish army all the way up to early 50s. It was developed and the model my grandpa used was called M1889/24 - 24th version of this rifle. This 24th version has a lot similarities with the M1 Garand.

    As for the score card. I am very very happy that I was the one who got it. Its one of those things you will never be able to replace, so its going into a frame.
     
  11. RifleSlinger

    RifleSlinger Tele-Meister

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    Can you translate the column headers? It looks like a course of fire, like a qualification, done at various distances from the target. I think that the number at the bottom is the total. You might find some information on what their qualification was back then.
     
  12. BobbyZ

    BobbyZ Doctor of Teleocity

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    I totally missed the Danish part. Lol

    Yeah I was thinking USA.
     
  13. Tremade

    Tremade Tele-Holic

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    The headers are:
    Day - shooting number - distance in meters - number of shots - hits - number of hits - points - comment

    Edit: oops, it's already translated in topic
     
  14. Mbechmann

    Mbechmann Friend of Leo's Ad Free + Supporter

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    Hehehe no worries. I actually enjoy this part of the US history as well. As a kid I read every single war time story I could. It was something that I was really interested in. Its also why I tried hard to get into the military when I was 18 in spite of having epilepsy growing up. It broke my heart when I got the final notice that it was out.

    Already translated them in the first post :)
    Colums say:
    Day - Shooting no - Range in meters - Shots fired - Score - Shots hit target - Points - Signature

    As for the qualification part. Its actually why I find this so interesting. In a letter grandpa had written to a local newspaper where he explained about his military service, he mentioned that he had been awarded a sweet assignment at the shooting range. We also know that he got a medal for being "Company Shooter" in 1940. So he was a good shot. I am just trying to find out how good he was :)
     
  15. Mbechmann

    Mbechmann Friend of Leo's Ad Free + Supporter

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    Hehe no worries.
     
  16. Mike SS

    Mike SS Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    You stated that he fired the rifle "standing", or "off hand" as it is known in the Marine Corps. This is the least stable position for shooting, and it takes great skill to hit the target. This fact considered your grandfather did some really awesome shooting. I can't even imagine firing at a target 400 meters away from the off hand position. When I qualified as a Marine we only had to fire 5 of our 50 rounds in the off hand, and we were 200 meters from the target. At the 300 and 500 meter lines we sat and laid down prone.

    So I would conclude that your grandfather was a very good shot with the rifle.
     
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  17. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    If these are standing shots (and ignoring the machine gun scores), your grandfather was a very good shot.

    At ranges up to 400 meters, and assuming a standard "bull's-eye" or silhouette target, with iron sights (no optics or magnification), he shot some excellent scores.

    I would also venture to say he had exceptionally sharp vision. As I recall, in WW2, sights were zeroed for 200-300 meters, meaning that if the sights are held directly on the target at the range for which they're zeroed, you'll get a hit. Anything closer or further away means you have to use your judgement and elevate or depress the muzzle of the rifle.

    For the ranges shot that were not at the zeroed point, the good scores mean your grandfather was a good judge of range (distance to the target) also.

    Impressive. Try cutting out a little 3" circle of cardboard, tape it to a wall, walk 200 meters away, and try to even see the thing. Then imagine holding a 4kg object about a meter long, horizontally, and perfectly still, so the circle appears to perch on top of a little post, maybe 4mm wide (your front sight). And hold perfectly still as you squeeze the trigger, knowing that rifle is about to kick the hell out of your shoulder!

    Interesting that these sessions are standing, much combat training is done from the prone position for obvious reasons.

    Haha, I see MikeSS beat me to many of the same points, but, yeah, I can see why your grandfather was offered a range job; he seems to have had outstanding shooting skills, and would have been a valuable asset as a shooting instructor.
     
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  18. Mbechmann

    Mbechmann Friend of Leo's Ad Free + Supporter

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    Thats the same thing I was thinking but since I have only ever shot a rifle one, I had no clue if I was right or not :). The more I think about it, the more I realize just how awesome a shot he really was.

    As for the standing/prone shooting position. Together with his score card there was a 40 page handbook. It explains how the main job of a rifleman was close combat fx in a city. That was mostly done standing up against house walls and you needed to move quickly between each shot. The book also explains that this is the reason why the testing from 100-250 meters was done standing up as you would expect to see in the city. Between 250-400 meters they were expected to hit both a target standing and prone.
    Thats the reason why I concluded that the testing grandpa did was done standing up. There is no way of knowing for sure but I think so :)
     
  19. studio

    studio Poster Extraordinaire

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    I've learned so much today indirectly because of your grandfather.
    He's still instructing with his score card! Awesome.
     
  20. String Tree

    String Tree Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    MY guess is that it was a good Score.
    Something he was proud of because he worked hard to achieve it.

    ~ST
     
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