Got an electric car

[imwjl]

PSA

The electric cars and "kids these days" posts are always a reminder to read Hans Rosling, have have crib sheets for logical fallacies and cognitive biases, and follow the annual Ad Fontes reports.

Hans Rosling RIP did great work on making sure our thoughts and actions aren't wrong via gaps in time and knowledge. The Ad Fontes project does an annual score card or report to help you know the reliability and editorial bias of dozens of news publishers. If you like that stuff and history add Noah Yuval Harari's Sapiens book. He does a tremendous job to help understand our paths and developments from hunter/gather, the agricultural revolution, scientific revolution and where we are now.

These things were really big helps in my life both personally, and to help with the work I do.

It is also important to have a good understanding of fear and optimism. I can suggest some light or take you a long time while you follow the references reading on that stuff too.

 

[imwjl]

https://reneweconomy.com.au/australias-first-solar-panel-recycling-plant-swings-into-action/

So what's this - chopped liver?

The will to recycle and ability are two different things - just as lead acid batteries from cars are recycled due to legislation so will solar panels and EVs. There are already similar shredding plants for ev batteries. Just because they're not widespread now doesn't mean they won't be.

They contain stainless steel, aluminium, plastic, copper and lithium. All.commodites with value.

Even if they're not recycled a solar panel that's produced several hundred kWh over its lifetime is a net positive compared to the pile of coal.burned.

Then there's the ever growing mountain of fly ash containing arsenic, selenium, cadmium and various other contaminants next to every coal fired plant.
View attachment 935278

What is done with this? Absolutely nothing. It's kept wet in a slurry lake to stop.it blowing away whereupon it leeches into groundwater causing further serious environment and health impacts.
View attachment 935279

If fossils fuels and their associated production cycles were invented today they'd never be allowed to develop as large-scale personal transport or for domestic usage as they have. Just due to their production impact and lifecycle.

Who's paying to rehabilitate this mess? Hint: it's not the miners
View attachment 935280

I'll have to find the no paywall version of the Wall St. Journal article I've posted before. With pictures, the negative externalities of EVs, and open to possible scenarios people could choose it still showed the net benefit with change.

My daily read of the WSJ and other good papers also have me in firm belief all the investment in change isn't just wild and crazy speculation without supporting data.

-Do we really think the world's top automakers are risking their positions without some thought and science behind it?
-With a profitable monopoly in a prosperous area do we really think the utilities here are taking gambles on nonsense?

 

[Lawdawg]

Before this thread gets any farther afield, I think it's worth adding that there are many compelling reasons for wanting an EV that have nothing to do with one's opinion on the environmental impact of EVs vs ICEs.

Compared to ICE vehicles, EVs require less maintenance, have lower fuel costs, offer more storage space, and most perform as well if not better on the road. The biggest advantage of ICEs is that most offer longer driving range and the refueling time is close to instantaneous compared to recharging an EV. For some drivers those are deal breakers, but for most daily driving, I'd suggest that an EV is a more practical vehicle for most drivers.

While I have any number of opinions on environmental issues, they were not a significant factor in my decision to get an EV.

 

[Whatizitman]

Before this thread gets any farther afield, I think it's worth adding that there are many compelling reasons for wanting an EV that have nothing to do with one's opinion on the environmental impact of EVs vs ICEs.

Compared to ICE vehicles, EVs require less maintenance, have lower fuel costs, offer more storage space, and most perform as well if not better on the road. The biggest advantage of ICEs is that most offer longer driving range and the refueling time is close to instantaneous compared to recharging an EV. For some drivers those are deal breakers, but for most daily driving, I'd suggest that an EV is a more practical vehicle for most drivers.

While I have any number of opinions on environmental issues, they were not a significant factor in my decision to get an EV.

Being able to "top off" an EV or plug-in hybrid overnight at home is MAJOR selling point for me. The vast majority of my driving is close to home or to and from work. For the few road trips I take yearly, I don't see the extra time or (gasp) frequency of charges to be a significant issue. I've yet to hear from an EV owner that range anxiety lasted very long after buying their first EV. We're just accustomed to long fuel ranges in ICE vehicles. Well, it made sense to have big tanks, since the vast majority of us do not store gasoline or diesel on our properties for vehicle use. With good reason.

And once again, for the folks in the rear, if peak time or disaster-related shortages on the grids are your worries, consider what happens at all the gas stations in your area during a catastrophic storm. When the power goes out, there's a run on gas. Good luck filling up after the call to evacuate comes.

 

[daddyplaysbass]

So, when you lease, how do you handle the charging part? Is there a separate charger part of the deal, or how does that work? It seems like there's an installation step, or is the charger built into the vehicle? If you visit a friend or family too far for a round trip charge, it doesn't seem you can just plug into their wall, or can you? 280-300 miles is nothing for a trip. I'd still have to keep a gas car just to make a summer trip in the same day. Around town (the other 90% of the time) an EV may work but I have motorcycles for that.

My Volt came with a wall-mounted charger, the cable pulls off and plugs into the car. 42 miles on a charge, plus about 300 miles with the gasoline engine that runs the generator to charge the battery to run the traction motor. You could bring the wall charger along with you and plug it in wherever you are. I would be leery, myself, if the only option is the battery.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

How are they on icy roads.

AWD?

Some are available with AWD. In fact, the first one I buy in a couple years will likely be the Subaru Solterra which only comes in AWD. The Toyota and Lexus versions will be available in 2WD, however.

 

[suthol]

Long distances can be done in an EV

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/woman-drove-her-tesla-20396km-around-australia

I'd have an EV in a heartbeat, it would be charged on a daily basis from my roof top solar and would be ideal for both my wife and I for general running around

Sadly in Australia our choice is quite limited at the moment, we have poor fuel standards so the majors are dumping their less efficient ICE vehicles into our market.

The other problem for me personally is that I tow the car in my avatar all over the place and the longest trip which I have done twice is just under 1400 Km ( 870 miles ) each way, when we get an EV that can tow 1000Kg and cover half of that distance in a day I'll be there if I'm still on the sunny side of the grass

 

[imwjl]

So, when you lease, how do you handle the charging part? Is there a separate charger part of the deal, or how does that work? It seems like there's an installation step, or is the charger built into the vehicle? If you visit a friend or family too far for a round trip charge, it doesn't seem you can just plug into their wall, or can you? 280-300 miles is nothing for a trip. I'd still have to keep a gas car just to make a summer trip in the same day. Around town (the other 90% of the time) an EV may work but I have motorcycles for that.

Whether you buy or lease, charging your car is your your responsibility pretty much like filling the gas tank. For public chargers, the official US Department Of Energy count and map is linked here. Maybe it's 46,404 or more of them and not 3 if someone is just finishing their work day in California.

I don't know what what your same day summer trips are, but the vehicles can top 300 miles in a charge and a Tesla SuperCharger states 200 mi from 15 minutes charges. All the naysayers I know seem to have a harder time than the actual owners.

On travel I observe my boss has a few great vehicles to choose from but he much prefers their Tesla Model Y over the full sized SUV and their gasoline cars. He says the tech features are totally worth it, the first 300+ miles are never going to a gas station, and a SuperCharger stop makes it easy to cover 500 miles. 2 SuperCharger stops for longer. He's no tree hugger. He's got a 2021 loaded Chevy V8 pickup too. He just thinks their Teslas are superior in every way unless he needs the pickup to tow or carry.

https://afdc.energy.gov/stations/#/find/nearest?country=US&fuel=ELEC&ev_levels=all

 

[TN Tele]

Put a $100 deposit on a Tesla CyberTruck. With the number of deposits I am looking at a 2+ year waiting list. My Ford F150 will be 10 years old by then and ready to upgrade. Time will tell if something better comes along by then.

 

[ChicknPickn]

There is really no dispute … other than reasons we cannot discuss here. There has been 103 well known studies, but this link https://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/webSearch2/main.jsp?AccessionNumber=ML102930305 will give a balanced and fair comprehensive analysis of those studies and best demonstrates the issues regarding nuclear energy plants. It’s not a simple answer unless you can wade through the various studies and issues. Keep in mind that there are enormous global corporations involved with this type of energy. I can’t say more here, but the link should satisfy your curiosity.

It is a fascinating subject to learn about from my engineering/science background perspective, but this analysis will give you lots of non technical information to chew on. I have coffee regularly with a retired nuclear power plant engineer that has reinforced my belief that it is a safe energy, but that is not the question here. It is about carbon footprint compared to fossil fuels and alternative energy.

From the US Energy Information Administration, https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=16031 :

Coal (74%) and natural gas (24%) power plants accounted for almost all of the CO2 emitted by the electric power sector in 2012. Nuclear power and renewables do not emit CO2.

I may be misinterpreting your use of the term "carbon footprint."

 

[trev333]

Have you given the new E car a name?....

 

[imwjl]

From the US Energy Information Administration, https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=16031 :

Coal (74%) and natural gas (24%) power plants accounted for almost all of the CO2 emitted by the electric power sector in 2012. Nuclear power and renewables do not emit CO2.

I may be misinterpreting your use of the term "carbon footprint."

It is is estimated to be running in 9 years, but the TerraPower design will help us know more about our energy future.

 

[Obsessed]

From the US Energy Information Administration, https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=16031 :

Coal (74%) and natural gas (24%) power plants accounted for almost all of the CO2 emitted by the electric power sector in 2012. Nuclear power and renewables do not emit CO2.

I may be misinterpreting your use of the term "carbon footprint."

Haa, yeah, you are quoting the classic simple mis-leading uninformed argument. I wish it were true. Not your fault to buy into it at all, because that is the intent. Please read more about these issues. It is not so simple, yet very interesting.

Part of it is how we look at the solar energy sector as well. The sunshine is “free”, but it takes a lot of energy (carbon dioxide output) to build the infrastructure to harness that energy. It is sort of a Catch-22. Nuclear energy is the same issue, just much more complex. EVs are the same problem.
The best solution available at this time is to address energy consumption reduction. That is the biggest gain compared to almost any alternative.

 

[Zoso420]

Haa, yeah, you are quoting the classic simple mis-leading uninformed argument. I wish it were true. Not your fault to buy into it at all, because that is the intent. Please read more about these issues. It is not so simple, yet very interesting.

Part of it is how we look at the solar energy sector as well. The sunshine is “free”, but it takes a lot of energy (carbon dioxide output) to build the infrastructure to harness that energy. It is sort of a Catch-22. Nuclear energy is the same issue, just much more complex. EVs are the same problem.
The best solution available at this time is to address energy consumption reduction. That is the biggest gain compared to almost any alternative.

Far less than building new fossil fuel burning power plants and extracting said fossil fuels. I think the biggest push back from renewable energy is because renewable energy can be decentralized. If energy production is decentralized then all the old power supply infrastructure becomes useless

 

[DesmoDog]

Put a $100 deposit on a Tesla CyberTruck. With the number of deposits I am looking at a 2+ year waiting list. My Ford F150 will be 10 years old by then and ready to upgrade. Time will tell if something better comes along by then.

I'm curious why you would choose a Tesla truck over the new electric F150 given what you drive now? It'll be ten years old so you can't dislike it too much...

 

[Space Pickle]

I'm curious why you would choose a Tesla truck over the new electric F150 given what you drive now? It'll be ten years old so you can't dislike it too much...

Yeah if I was a truck guy I would be into the electric F150, the specs seem great.

 

[maxvintage]

I have an upcoming trip that will test the practicality of the car pretty seriously. I need to do research in a town about 3.5 hours south of here, 195 miles, near the tiny rural village of Holland, Virginia. There will be zero charging station in or around Holland. I'll need to spend the night down there, and to do a lot of driving on rural roads. I can make it on a single charge easily, but can't make it there and back. So unlike with a ICE car I will need to strategize some. The car will accept a level three charger, which claims it can reach 80% capacity from empty in an hour. So I'll need to find a charging station, and probably go get breakfast while it charges. I knew this would be the case going in but it's going to be interesting to work out.

I'll need @ 200 miles of range to get home. If I'm at, say, 75 miles of range left how long do I have to stay at a level three charger? Will there be a waiting line of other people? I have no real idea.

This kind of thing is part of why we decided to lease it rather than buy it. Is it going to be practical for this kind of trip? We don't take a lot of long car trips, but we take a few. This will be a beta test

 

[imwjl]

I have an upcoming trip that will test the practicality of the car pretty seriously. I need to do research in a town about 3.5 hours south of here, 195 miles, near the tiny rural village of Holland, Virginia. There will be zero charging station in or around Holland. I'll need to spend the night down there, and to do a lot of driving on rural roads. I can make it on a single charge easily, but can't make it there and back. So unlike with a ICE car I will need to strategize some. The car will accept a level three charger, which claims it can reach 80% capacity from empty in an hour. So I'll need to find a charging station, and probably go get breakfast while it charges. I knew this would be the case going in but it's going to be interesting to work out.

I'll need @ 200 miles of range to get home. If I'm at, say, 75 miles of range left how long do I have to stay at a level three charger? Will there be a waiting line of other people? I have no real idea.

This kind of thing is part of why we decided to lease it rather than buy it. Is it going to be practical for this kind of trip? We don't take a lot of long car trips, but we take a few. This will be a beta test

I look forward to knowing what you learn. The curiosity is we know the advantages of the Tesla charging network but IIRC we're early on the news of it opening up and an electric minivan is what I have my eyes on.

 

[bettyseldest]

Congratulations on your purchase. I don't drive an EV at the moment, we used to drive about 30,000 miles a year, but for the last two have only done around 700. So once this current situation is all over I will look to replace our current 13 year old 190,000 mile diesel engine estate car with an EV. MG5 looks the best bet at the moment.

Certainly here in the UK, if folks think that an EV won't suit their lifestyle and circumstances they should take a good look at changing their lifestyle. If a car with a couple of hundred miles range, and possibly restricted re-fueling opportunities is not sufficient, what does it say about how you are living your life?

 

[KelvinS1965]

The best solution available at this time is to address energy consumption reduction. That is the biggest gain compared to almost any alternative.

At the risk of creating a lot of 'entitled' posts or people moaning about their liberty, but just cutting down on un-necessary journeys and maybe combining the ones you need to make where possible might be a big help. Same with buying loads of cheap tatt off the Internet...the carbon footprint of making that stuff in China and shipping it around the world, only for it end up in landfill due to it being low quality/short lifespan (but hey; it's cheap so I can just buy another when it breaks ). That's on a domestic basis and something we might have some control over if we have a mind to.

At work it's very different...but I'd better not go into it on a public forum. I can say that for us that electric company cars and the infrastructure (in the UK) are not at the level where it is a practical option, though it's now getting hard to chose a suitable ICE car from our company car list for engineers carrying lots of parts and tools, so it's a double edged sword.