Good work FBI (Operation Varsity Blues).

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by imwjl, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. etype

    etype Tele-Afflicted

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    I currently work at a state university and students do indeed fail out. It is also true that the state is exerting pressure for us to change that. The state is also instituting changes to make it easier for students to get more college credit from AP and dual credit. Makes it cheaper/faster to get through, but maturity matters too and students don't perform as well when they take upper level courses sooner and the prerequisites were taken at a JuCo.

    It is also true that students who fail out can get their acts together and come back... and those that do usually perform really well the second time through.

    Do students perform poorly because they are working too much? Yes. But students now like to live with a certain lifestyle that my college age self couldn't have dreamed of. That being said, states have cut way back on subsidizing state schools, so public schools now cost what private schools did 30 years ago (accounting for inflation).
     
  2. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    I taught for 30-some years. Oh yeah, students flunk out.
     
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  3. DrPepper

    DrPepper Tele-Afflicted

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    They charge everyone the same over-priced tuition and fees... :)
     
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  4. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

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    I wonder if the guy responsible for this holds a college degree .
    If not , maybe he should be teaching a class in creative thinking . After all , it appears that he needed to create individualized paths for each client . Not a simple task I'll wager .
     
  5. backporchmusic

    backporchmusic Friend of Leo's

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    You're doing this right. Don't backpedal, don't admit wrongs, no matter what.

    No point in continuing, I'm out.
     
  6. zimbo

    zimbo Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    So what are the charges the parents are facing? If it's a just a fine and community service it's no big deal. That's just a slap on the wrist to them.
     
  7. LeicaBoss

    LeicaBoss Tele-Holic Gold Supporter

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    Paying colleges off to get your underwhelming offspring admitted is a big industry.

    Sorry, "making donations"

    I can see why Universities would hate seeing bribes being diverted to faculty and staff - when they want the bribes (sorry, donations) going straight to them.
     
  8. beninma

    beninma Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    No one has mentioned it yet.. one of the confounding & related factors in scandals like this is a lot of the elite schools with a lot of liberal arts degrees have had rampant grade inflation over the past few decades.

    Harvard for example is always mentioned. It is very hard to get in, but once you get in it is nowhere near as difficult to graduate as it once was. Average GPA is > 3.0. This stacks up with that percentage of students who get in based on legacy or a large family donation. If you can get them in even if they shouldn't be there in a perfect meritocracy the grade inflation will help them get their degree. This often gets mixed in with schools having a supposed "party track" for wealthy students who are of less academic means. A path for them to get through school and get access to the alumni network which is a very large part of the value of a degree from these schools. You're in the "club" at that point.

    Some of the engineering & science focused schools have not given into this, they still fail students relentlessly if they can't hack it in the tough programs, but they have different games going on. Where I went to school in the last 20 years an IT Program was created, and it's definitely watered down compared to Math or Computer Science. What you see with that program is a) A lot of CS & Math washouts b) A very high percentage of graduate students who are here on a student VISA with a degree from a foreign school. They end up with a master's degree in IT, then we see them come and interview for software engineering positions. That degree program probably brings in a lot of money for the school. It's easier to teach, it has a lot of students in it, etc..

    Where I have worked the last 4 and a half years we have a programming exam for prospective Software Engineers. This exam should be cake for a sophomore in the CS program at my Alma mater.. perhaps you should be able to ace it by the end of freshman year, I would have passed it at the end of my freshman year. I have seen many, many people with master's degrees in IT, some who have a CS degree from a foreign school as well fail that test miserably. Some of these candidates I've seen flounder the test are from that IT program at my alma mater. I generally can tell right away from the resume what's going to happen.

    So the whole game with all those foreign students who get into watered down master's degree programs at some of the engineering schools... they are chosen from the wealthy pool of foreign applicants, so they are all paying full boat tuition. It is a dramatic difference from my time in school, and it happened really quick between 2000-2004 or so... complete transformation of what some of the departments looked like.

    Everyone is on a spectrum though. You could be a great student, your parents don't have enough money to donate a building or bribe a coach, but maybe they have enough money to help you pay tuition. That is still a big advantage over a student who is fighting for financial aid, racking up debt, and working a job while studying. The financial stress can make it a lot harder to succeed.
     
  9. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    My wife has added degrees and certifications to insure job security and be eligible for new opportunities. Having first graduated from one of the country's top public universities, she considered all this modern online and alternative way a joke by comparison. It was overpriced retail shopping for what you need vs the competition and learning that was a core part of where both of us got our bachelor's degrees.

    While the scandal in the news brings up possibly mediocre kids at elite schools, I also wonder about a lot of degree options out there being another form of pay for vs earn with accomplishments. That's really unhealthy when those students are accumulating a lot of debt.
     
  10. Mike Eskimo

    Mike Eskimo Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Where have I seen that before ?
     
  11. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I used to say this was alpha-male/alpha-chimp behaviour, then I watched this video and realized I was insulting alpha-chimps!



    Executive brief: the best alpha males are leaders, collaborators, comforters and peacemakers, not puffed up bullies and jerks.
     
  12. stantheman

    stantheman Doctor of Teleocity

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    College these days is A FUNKY JOKE.
    By the time the loans are paid off you're in Your thirties...
    If you wanna be a barista go to college.

    INSTEAD...go to a good Vocational Trade High School and learn a viable skill that'll make you money enough to buy a Home and a semi decent car. (Always buy two year old used cars and you'll save a bundle, spring for a Pine Tree "New Car Scent" if Your ego is so crushed...I prefer "Black Ice" myself as a scent.):D

    Seriously, Higher Education is a SCAM of epic proportion. You get absolutely zero guarantee of ever finding a job.

    If Your Family is putting on the pressure at least find a school that teaches You how to make money.

    Two of my best friends - both women - walked out of High School - never went to College - and Today both are worth over two million dollars - each. One went to work for Honda and the other went into Real Estate...zero experience jumped into sales cold. 40 years later the college grads work for them.

    I hope You learned something today because The Truth is a beech.
    Once Upon A Time In America - College was cool - but this is Today.
    Learn a Vocation.
     
  13. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    Not only that, but the tennis coach has a much lower price. His biggest problem is he doesn't have access to judges and legislatures, though, otherwise, he could get nebulous rules written that would make his actions OK with nebulous talk. Like "intent at the time of form completion" being more important than whether or not someone played tennis. "well, I had intent".
     
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  14. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I wouldn't say that. Just as university isn't for everyone, vocational college isn't for everyone. I would say, research the market, the cost of education and the potential salaries. Money isn't everything, but being poor or in debt sucks.

    I agree, there are few guarantees in life, but ... if you have a medical degree, I think you'll find work as a doctor.
     
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  15. Mike Eskimo

    Mike Eskimo Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Plus - a chimp’ll rip your face off ! :eek:o_O:eek:o_O
     
  16. SolidSteak

    SolidSteak Friend of Leo's

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    Does anyone here do UDEMY, or Coursera, or any of the (usually unaccredited) online learning programs?

    I have a friend who started his own business, is still mostly in the red (as many startups are for the first 10 years so I've heard) and is thinking about going back to school to become an accountant. No offense to accountants out there (you all are lifesavers during tax season!) but I can't imagine my friend going from his lifelong dream of doing what he loves to... being an accountant! Also the going back to school thing... what if he gets $2,000 into a program and hates it?

    So I recommended he sign up for a $10 online class like "intro to accounting" or something, learn some basics, and see if it's something he would like without spending a fortune on it.Heck, even check out a free youtube video or something. Find an accounting podcast, join the accounting discussion page, etc.

    I wish I had that option of cheap online learning before going to college... I guess there were always college textbooks out there I could have surveyed. Really, many people aren't going to know if a career is right for them until they just get right into doing it. Then when something clicks, maybe it's time for the "college experience."
     
  17. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    A liberal arts education was intended to create a well-rounded citizen. You study sciences, social sciences,humanities, and the idea is that you know a little bit about a lot of things.
    The intent was NOT to provide a specialized education for a specific job, but to prepare you for entering into almost any career path, to teach you how to be a continuous learner.
    It was also intended to give you fundamental skills-- clear writing, research skills, analytical skills.

    It is also true that there are some career paths for which you can get some specialized training during your undergraduate years....especially if you go to a school that offers
    those specific degrees. Engineering is one. Computer science is another. But for most high specialization fields the expectation is that you need to go to more school-- med school,
    law school, grad school, etc.

    Computer science, drama, art, studio photography, film production, and music are all interesting because what matters is whether you can do it well or not. Sure, you can go out and find a
    school that will give you some training and give you a degree, but the companies that might hire you just want to know how good you are. Whether you learned to code in your basement all on
    your own, or whether you got a fancy C.S. degree from MIT is somewhat irrelevant-- can you code at a high level or not? That's what matters. In theory the same even holds true for law and medical school.
    If you can pass the bar exam or medical boards, you might be able to get a license to practice even if you got your degree from some on-line program or some party school in Grenada.

    This is why I mentioned earlier that universities should do a better job of understanding their niche. Some more technical schools should focus on providing
    highly specialized technical educations, with just a smattering of electives in other fields to provide some minimal level of "roundedness". Other more traditional universities should not try to sell themselves
    as providing specialized career education when in fact they are just providing a general education and prepping people for either entry level jobs or graduate school. Guidance counselors should do a much
    better job of explaining to high school kids the differences among universities. Too many kids have an amorphous goal of "going to college" without really understanding what their choices are.

    Some kids already know exactly what they want to do at an early age. Most kids don't. For most kids, then, a general undergraduate education that exposes them to the full gamut of possibilities and helps
    them better understand their talents and proclivities is not necessarily a bad thing or a waste of time/money. I'm mindful of Click and Clack, the Tappett Brothers. One or both of them went to MIT, and then they
    became car mechanics. They didn't need those degrees in order to be car mechanics, but I suspect that their bachelor's educations equipped them with the mental skills to be the best mechanics they could possibly be.

    On the other hand, really smart people are just plain smart no matter whether they go to a fancy school or not. I meet them often. They are often embarrassed about their lack of formal education when they shouldn't be.
    Because anyone who pays attention quickly realizes they are whip smart and have educated themselves through extensive reading and continuous curiosity about the world.
     
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  18. getbent

    getbent Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I listened to an interesting podcast the other day with cesar millan.... his work has shown the same with dog packs... he laughed and said, 'the biggest difference between alphas in dogs and people is that the dog pack will not accept an erratic acting alpha, they will replace the alpha if they behave stupidly, erratically or too violently... humans don't do that... they let it go."
     
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  19. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Friend of Leo's

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    Seen what? One guy arguing an issue and the other guy impugning motive? Then a third party stand-in coming along to fan the flames to see if they can create some hostility? Yeah, that does sorta ring familiar. Hmm.

    Don't keep us in suspense too long.
     
  20. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Friend of Leo's

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    The ringleader was charged with racketeering conspiracy, money laundering conspiracy, conspiracy to defraud the United States, and obstruction of justice. Some other coaches and related folks have been charged with wire fraud and other charges.

    The news stories I've read have been not very good about detailing the charges (there's 50 people involved, maybe that's why) but I'm guessing parents also charged with conspiracy to commit, fraud, mail fraud and I would think some of them would be charged with tax evasion since donations are involved and some education expenses can be written off of taxes.

    Ok, sorry to laugh but: Apparently when one of the celebrities was being arrested by the feds her daughter was on a yacht owned by the the chairman of the USC Board of Trustees. Awkward.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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